Something to consider.

Great Debates
1

HomeLife magazie has this on the inside cover of its July copy. I would like to know how people here feel about it.

“In God we trust” is our national motto.
(36 United States Code, Section 186)

“In God we trust” has been on our coins since 1863.
(31 United States Code, Section 5112[D][1])

Our Pledge of Allegiance cites, “One nation under God.”

Both state legislators and United States Congress employ paid chaplains to pray at the opening of all sessions.

All military branches of the United States government pay chaplains.

The inscription of the Liberty Bell cites Leviticus 25:10.

A portrait of Moses with the Ten Commandments hangs above the Speaker’s chair in the United States Congress.

The Library of Congress has statues of the apostle Paul and Moses, and it also has large inscriptions of Micah 6:8 and Psalm 19:1 prominently displayed.

The Lincoln Memorial has chiseled on it, “Judgments of the Lord are righteous.”

The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is dedicated to a soldier “Known but to God.”

There is a prayer room in Congress.

The United States Supreme Court opens with the words, “God save the United States and this honorable court.”

At the recent impeachment hearing of President William Jefferson Clinton, Chief Justice Rehnquist and all United States Senators participating had to be sworn “under God” on an oath. All witnesses who testified by deposition or otherwise were also sworn.

We have a mandated “National Day of Prayer.” (36 United States Code, Section 169[H])

The birth of Christ, Christmas, is a national holiday.

The last stanza of “The Star Spangled Banner” refers to God.

John Hancock’s signature on the Constitution was signed 1787 “in the year of our Lord.”

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  1. The “Pledge of Allegiance” (which I personally find onerous, as I don’t believe in loyalty oaths) did not contain the words “under GOd” until they were added during the Communist witch-hunt era, to distinguish “us” from them “Godless pinkos.”

  2. December 25 is almost certainly not the date on which Christ was born. Not even close.

I’m not sure what your point is, though. Wow, so there are a bunch of Establishment Clause violations. I expect nothing less and get nothing more.

3

It is majoritarianism on the precipice of tyranny.

4

I never said Dec 25 was the actual day Christ was born on. I meant we celebrate His birth on that day, but I can see where you could take it in the manner you did.

Find whatever you want to find in it but it doesn’t change the fact it exists and says “under God.”

My point is to show that we did have a Biblical beginning.

5

It didn’t originally. THat was added by politicians. Well, the whole thing was conceived by politicians; this was just continued egregiousness.

Oh, we did not either.

6

pldennison,

What do you find onerous? Is it loyalty, oaths, or the combination of the two? Please explain.

7

Something esle was added by politicians, “Separation of church and State.” It’s not in the 1st Amendment.

Ok, if you say we don’t then we don’t. Forget what the founding fathers said, wrote, etc.

8

Jeninksfan: Our founding fathers were the ones who put in the First Amendment. No, it doesn’t have the specific words, “separation of church and state” in there, but it sure has that meaning.

In response to your OP, I was going to say something similar to what Phil said – that there are a lot of violations of the First Amendment. But I think Libertarian said it better, so I’ll just quote him:

Bingo.

9

The First says freedom** of** religion, not freedom** from** religion. Separation of Church and State is a totally different subject.

Are you suggesting the founding fathers meant we should have a religion free government and then paid chaplains and printed money with “in God we trust” on it? Are you suggesting they couldn’t properly interpret what they wrote themselves? When Mr. Hancock signed the Constitution with 1787 “in the year of our Lord” did he know he was violating the very law he had just written?

10

[q]At the recent impeachment hearing of President William Jefferson Clinton, Chief Justice Rehnquist and all United States Senators participating had to be sworn “under God” on an oath. All witnesses who testified by deposition or otherwise were also sworn.[/q]

For the record, one does have to swear under god or on a bible in a court of law. An areligious oath is allowed (atheists testify in court, too).

[q]My point is to show that we did have a Biblical beginning.[/q]

A couple of problems here. First, the fact that the founding fathers were Christian does not necessarily give us a “Biblical beginning;” to assert that it does is to say that the work of a Christian accountant is somehow a “Biblical balance sheet.” Second, even if we did have a “Biblical beginning” (and you really should clarify what you mean by that), so what?

[q]Something else was added by politicians, “Separation of church and State.” It’s not in the 1st Amendment.[/q]

The fact that the actual words don’t appear in the document does not preclude their being inferred. Even if we were to assume that the founding fathers intended only what they wrote, the constitution is a “living” document. designed to change with time. The founders were dealing with a relatively (not completely) homogenous population, religiously and culturally. Today, there is a significant chance that large numbers of people will be offended by state sanctioned affirmations of a particular religion (or religion in general). The Supreme Court’s measures to avoid entanglement of church and state are wholly justified. Look up the decisions and try to refute the majority opinion. It’s tough to do.

=> Also, I’m curious: your name is “jenkinsfan;” who’s jenkins. <=

11

I find it to be offensive. Despite the fact that our country was founded by christians 224 years ago, I find it to be offensive. Because two centuries of immigrants have brought cultural diversity to this country, I find it to be offensive. Because it should not be permissible to alienate those who ascribe to different gods, I find it to be offensive. Because it should not be permissible to alienate those who do not ascribe to any, I find it to be offensive. Because we hypocritically take pride in our “separation of church and state,” I find it to be offensive. Because politics seems to be ineffably bound with religion, I find it to be offensive. Because we the people have individual rights and should not be subject to an inundation from the tyranny of a singular force, I find it to be offensive. Must I continue?

12

I thought “I don’t believe in loyalty oaths” was fairly self-explanatory. They are a subversion of the very principles democracy alledges to stand for.

jenkinsfan: You seem to be confused by the difference between a religious beginning and a Biblical beginning. Your assignment for Friday is a 1,000-word essay on how the Biblical commandments are antithetical to Constitutional principles. Your first paragraph should explain how commandments 1, 2, 3 and 4 (Exodus 20:1-17) can be reconciled with the 1st Amendment to the Constitution.

Also, please include discussion of Thomas Jefferson’t statement in a letter to, IIRC, the Baptists in Danbury, CT which states that the 1st Amendment does (and should) “create a wall of separation between Church and State.” Also provide detailed discussion of Deism, and Jefferson’s rejection of the Divinity of Christ.

Finally, please explain how freedom of religion precludes, for those who so choose, freedom from religion.

13

Oh, also read and discuss the following articles, which explains how the principles of American government are derived more from pre-Christian Greek philosophy than from Biblical inspiration:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/carrier2.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/buckner1.html

14

For extra credit, how about a brief (~200 words) summary of Jefferson’s oppostition to what he viewed as the Pauline distortion of the Gospels, and his attempted excision of Paul’s letters from the New Testament.

15

Jerry B. Jenkins is one of the authors of the Left Behind book series. As many poster here can tell you, it’s one of the greates pieces of literature of our time. :smiley:

The nation was founded with Christian principles and the Bible was very instrumental in the founding father’s way of thinking, therefore, it can be said that we have a Biblical foundation. The work of a Christian accountant should be an honest balance sheet which is Biblical. This is how our society was started. One works hard and earns an honest living. This fits into Scripture.

“So what,” you say? My purpose of this thread is show that God blessed this nation above all others because of our Christian establishment.

16

“The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion
that changes the heart.” President Thomas Jefferson

“I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which
have ever been preached to man…” President Thomas Jefferson

“Of all systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus.” Thomas Jefferson, To William Canby, 1813

17

Huh. In that case, you’d think that Italy- home to the Pope- would have faired a lot better over the last 1000 years.

Or for that matter, England- which has an official Christian state church- might have not lost the entire Empire.

I’d like you to enunciate which principles were specifically Christian. In other words, which principles upon which this country was founded were only Christian and in no way connected to the free-thinkers of the Renaissance or the ancient Greco-Roman models of democracy.

Please state which Bible passages influenced the creation of this country, and how.

A Biblical balance sheet? Must be a huge account to be of Biblical proportions. What exactly do you mean by your above statement?

It also fits into Shintoism. Were our Founding Fathers expecting to bring about a Japanese nation?

It also fits into the Roman Republican Code of Honor. Funny, though, I don’t remember our armies being led by Caius Georgius Washingtonius the Younger. Though a lot of Roman numerals were used in the creation of the Constitution… Hey! And Latin! Lots of Latin was used!

Of course! The Founding Fathers intended to re-create the glory of Rome, what with the Latin and the psuedo-republicanism and the numerals and such! So where are the aquedcuts? Shouldn’t we have lots of big aqueducts? And temples on every corner for all of our hundreds of deities? And games! Big games with throwing Christians to the Lions! Of course, we’re a civilized society now, so we’ll just throw them to the Detroit Lions; hey, they won’t do any worse than Gus Frerotte, right?

18

“If we make religion our business, God will make it our blessedness.” John Adams

“We’ve staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We
have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us . . . to Govern
ourselves according to the commandments of God.
The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this
Constitution is founded.” President James Madison

So, prayer & the 10 commandments are unconstitutional? Says who? Certainly not the founding fathers.

19

**jenkinsfan **:

Y’know, I’m pretty solidly behind you about the “honest” part, but how does that tie into biblical?

Well, just don’t tell that to those who have suffered at the hands of this nation. I imagine that they would disagree.

Waste
Flick Lives!

20

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by GLWasteful *
****jenkinsfan **: