So what’s the argument then?
There seem to be two things going on here:
If the point is to force a person to accept cash, this works, but it doesn’t as a way of exchanging cash for goods, which was the original hypothetical.
Where I live, the sales tax is close to 15%. If a small, non-chain business (restaurant, hair salon, etc.) encourages cash-only transactions and doesn’t give you a receipt, it means they intend to not declare the transaction. They may charge you tax, they may even give you a receipt with tax amounts printed on it, but there’s a good chance they will keep the tax amounts in their own pocket anyway. The government has mandated special receipt-printing systems in restaurants to try to limit that. But the cultural elimination of cash is also slowly killing off this, uh, business model.
But even in that case, the $15,000 isn’t being paid as the result of a creditor-debtor relationship. The owner of the car never loaned anything to the thief. No credit was extended and no debt was created. The new $15,000 is restitution for a crime, not fulfillment of a loan.
Likewise for the cup of coffee. If the thief ends up being forced to pay the business five bucks in damages, it’s not actually payment for the cup of coffee. It’s restitution in the value of the stolen goods. The coffee itself is never actually paid for. No exchange has taken place and the store has at no point been forced to accept cash as payment for the coffee.
That surprises me - not the lack of cash or checks but the preference for Venmo or Zelle over credit cards. Venmo and Zelle were initially not meant to be used for commercial transactions and to the best of my knowledge still work as if they were only being used to transfer money between people who know each other.
Let’s say I hire you for my wedding. Presumably , I will have to pay you a substantial amount before the wedding. If I pay you with a credit card, I can initiate a chargeback if you don’t show and don’t refund me . If I pay you through Venmo, I can’t start a chargeback through Venmo. I can start a chargeback on my credit card if that’s how the Venmo payment is funded - but if the payment is funded through my Venmo balance or a bank account , I will be out of luck. And if I’m going to be finding the payment with a credit card to get those protections , I don’t see an advantage to using Venmo rather than the credit card directly.
I don’t know. That’s how it is for me. But even before, very few used cards. Venmo and Zelle have just replaced checks and the occasional cash payment. So it’s not really any less safe.
Indeed.
Typical lawyer: “It’s a fact that this is my opinion.”
Good luck with that. You’ll just be one crank among the thousands that didn’t have a problem that day. It’s not the fault of the restaurant that the airport has that policy. If anyone even saw the letter (not an email of course. Fuck those people that make you use email), it would surprise me
My contractor was this way. The amount was over my available credit limit, so I offered a check. Nope, he wanted to know if I could Zelle it. I could, but there was a daily limit on what I could transfer, such that it would take three days for me to get him all of the money. And that was what he opted for.
What I’m seeing now is a lot of small restaurants/bars are adding a 2-4% credit card surcharge. Since I only get 1% back, I’ve started carrying cash for when I go to one of those establishments.
You know, there ARE some people who don’t carry a phone 24/7.
I’ve heard of such people but my understanding is that they’re as rare as hen’s teeth.
Yeah I noticed that when a a decade or so ago credit card companies dropped that requirement that you charge the same as cash (or, rather, you couldn’t charge a fee for using CC) on their merchant agreements (though it was okay to have a “cash discount.”) I’ve always charged the same, regardless.
While I absolutely respect a business’s right to limit their payment methods as provided by law, I also support those states which mandate businesses take cash.
There’s plenty of overlap between “people who are poor” and “people who don’t have electronic payment methods.” A true cashless society is only feasible if everybody has the means to take part in it.
Policies which restrict poor folks’ abilities to engage with society contribute to systemic injustices even if the individual businesses are making “no cash payments” policies solely on what is most profitable and convenient for them.
And they won’t be able to use certain businesses.
Here in Canada, banking is mostly dominated by 5 big banks that pretty much set technology. We had chip cards long before USA (and they REQUIRE a PIN code). I haven’t written a cheque in years, and in the last 10 years wrote maybe 5 cheques. The final nail in that coffin was e-Transfer for small personal, where you sign up your bank account to send emails to the payee - when they click on the link (they’re signed up too) the transfer goes into their account.
I’ve used my Apple watch, and my phone before that, for Apply Pay with my credit card. A few years ago cashiers were saying “that is so cool!”. Today, I wave my wrist at them and they know exactly what’s up - everyone has a watch or phone payment. For fast food - you sign up for the app, it includes payment method by card. I’ve only vaguely heard of Venmo before, no idea how it’s implemented.
Cash has its own issues - it’s far easier and more tempting to steal, easier to lose, and handling costs money. Banks will for example, charge a service fee when the business asks for coins and small bills for making change, and some even charge for counting big deposits. (Mind you, this is Canada - there can be a service charge on every deposit). Then there’s employee time to count the till after closing and before opening, etc.
I, being an old fart, used to do cash for minor transactions until COVID. Now it’s extremely rare, and only for small businesses that prefer to avoid the fees. For example, a local butcher shop - each transaction is large enough that cash is worthwhile. For a business that sells things one cup at a time, cash handling could become onerous. Most businesses prefer in order -debit (fixed fee), then cash, then credit (percentage fee). People prefer credit, as it does not come directly out of their account, they delay payment for a month or more.
This is why I ask for a real lawyer’s input. IANAL, but a debt is created by a transaction (or a court award, etc.) A transaction consists of an offer, an acceptance, and then the exchange according to the accepted conditions which creates a debt which must be paid to finish the transaction. You did not offer to sell your car. A theft is not that - it creates criminal liability. A criminal court may order restitution, or a civil court can award damages if a party is aggrieved.
If you tell the prospective car buyer “I need the money in my hand before you drive off” and they drive off without paying, that is not a sale, that is theft. They did not fulfill the conditions you asked and they implicitly accepted by wanting to buy the car.
So I go through the self-scanner at a supermarket. It does not warn “no cash accepted” before I begin scanning. I scan, then rather than paying credit, I go to the attendant and say “I want to pay cash.” I have my bag of groceries. They have offered to sell them to me same as anyone else in the store. There is no other way to pay cash. I am not trying to leave without settling my debt. Is it a legal debt, now that I’ve accepted their offer to sell me stuff? I guess in the end, it depends what the police and then the court say. Which is why I’m asking a professional what they think the outcome would be…
If some checkout terminal does not take cash, and you use it anyway, then ask to pay cash, you will have just wasted your own time as some employee will have to do a cash checkout anyway, which you could have done in the first place.
ETA unless they really don’t handle cash at all, which I have not seen at supermarkets and convenience stores (maybe not all registers accept cash but there is usually at least one), in which case the result will be to seriously annoy them (as well as waste your own time, as above).
ETA2 if you don’t pay, they will not give you the groceries, obviously
Fewer and fewer people. I don’t run down to our barn without my phone (I’ve had to take a quick picture or send a text).
Clever, except that you may not know they will charge you until you arrive. Are you always carrying around enough cash just in case, or do you walk out over a 2% credit surcharge fee?
In my experience, some such places have an on-site ATM or can direct you to the nearest one.
So, there is a big difference between a store that only will accept certain forms of payment (as in the OP), but has that information posted, and your hypothetical example here.
I’ve never come across a business which only accepts certain types of payments, but doesn’t make that clear prior to commencing the actual transaction – a sign on the business’s door, a sign at the cash register, verbal instruction from an employee, etc. Yes, there are people who are unobservant (or oblivious), and don’t pay attention to the signs, but I have only so much sympathy for that.
Are you aware of any actual examples of a store that operates as you describe – i.e., doesn’t accept cash, only accepts Venmo, etc., but does nothing to make this clear to customers prior to checking out? I’d be surprised if many businesses operate this way (or do so for very long), but if they do, then I have even less sympathy for those businesses.