I mean, I guess? But this whole discussion is stemming from the assertion that the a store can be forced to complete the transaction by accepting cash. If we both agree (and I think we do) that the money paid as a result of a settlement is not part of the original transaction, then we’re just talking at cross purposes.
There’s also the cost of sorting and counting the money, getting dinged for any counterfeits, worrying about theft, etc…
So, cash may be ‘free’ to accept, but there is still a cost, which is why many businesses don’t take it now. Of course, the desire to exclude the riffraff who don’t have smartphones may be part of it too.
This is precisely my question, and something that legally, only a lawyer can say authoritatively based on a knowledge of the law. There’s more to a transaction than taking possession - there’s offer and acceptance process.
But if you leave sufficient money to cover the purchase, then there really isn’t a case for theft. If you offer cash and they refuse it, once you are carrying your groceries, you are in possession and owe them money, they are legally obliged to accept cash for that debt. What would the police say? “He had $20 worth of groceries, he left you $20 cash? Call us when you have a real problem…” If it gets into a grabbing contest, the whoever participates in a physical altercation is at risk, but that’s not the purchasing issue.
They can of course legally bar you from their store in future, under the trespassing law.
More likely it boils down to “That’s $2.15 for the coffee; you only have cash? We don’t have change, if you don’t have exact change you can leave us $3 and we’ll call it even.” I imagine less people insist on cash on those terms…"
What I remember from Judge Wapner on The Peoples Court is that an offer, acceptance and consideration are necessary elements.
That’s not much of an argument, though. “It’s not important enough to deal with” is not the same as legal.
I imagine the cops (not to mention some regulators) might have a different reaction if you took a $200k car and left $200k in cash (leaving aside the likelihood of the dealer simply pocketing the money and reporting the car stolen).
It’s no different from a store with a policy of not accepting large bills, which runs afoul of no laws. Nobody, unless local laws say otherwise, can force a vendor to accept $100 bills even if change is available. And this is generally accepted by nearly everybody (and certainly law enforcement) as unproblematic. Extend that to bills and coins of any denomination and we get the same result.
I know of one fairly wealthy person who won’t carry a phone because he would have to answer business calls. I suppose you have to be high enough on the food chain to pull that off.
That’s seriously messed up. And they probably charge high prices if they own the whole concession business. I doubt I would have noticed it because I plan out my travel snacks in great detail. But still, wow. What if people get stuck at an airport due to cancelled flights.
There is a “nuisance clause” IIRC, in some of these laws. For instance, IIRC the vendor is not obliged to accept more than 50 pennies or some such.
The simplest solution I’ve heard to the “big bill” issue is “OK, we’ll take it, but you will have to come back tomorrow for your change.”
If the auto seller is trying to sell a car, and you offer him $200,000 cash, why would he not take it? Other than bagging it and taking it straight to the bank, what’s the hassle? But presumably, the same law applies. As long as the deal was concluded, and the price agreed on, you now just need to pay him. Of course, with a number that big, “how ya gonna pay?” is probably one of the first things agreed on in most dealerships. My dealer had a limit of, I believe, $7,000 on credit card when I bought my BMW. For a Toyota Camry, I just wrote a cheque. (And then covered those amounts from my HELOC whose interest was half what they could offer)
The workers clearly didn’t think this through. How can you possibly buy a new cellular phone without scanning a QR code on a cell phone?
The real incongruity with this story is the proliferation of human workers. The corp has really got to get that number down and replace them all with robots, like the restaurant in that X-Files episode, “Rm9sbG93ZXJz”.
That’s not how business works. Both parties have to agree to the terms of the transaction and the form of payment. Otherwise it’s theft if you just take it.
If the business isn’t set up to handle cash, what the heck are they supposed to do with the $3? Hope the barista puts in somewhere secure (which would normally be a cash register and then a safe) until someone (usually the store manager) takes it to the bank with the rest of the day’s earnings (of which there is none because no one else is using cash)? And then make a note to manually enter that $3 in the ledger because the POS system doesn’t have a way to process cash.
I assume it’s totally legal to not accept cash. We just took our kids to Legoland and the entire theme park and hotel only accepts cashless transactions.
A friend took her kids to Kennywood, a local amusement park. She brought cash, assuming that it would be the simplest way to go.
She was surprised to find that they do not accept cash. Luckily, her dad came with them and had a credit card.
It’s not a nuisance issue as it would be for a wheelbarrow of pennies or the like. And we’re not looking for “solutions”. It doesn’t matter if you can come up with an alternate payment scheme. The point is that it is not illegal to have a store policy not to deal with the situation in the first place.
They often do have change for a single $100 but don’t want to deal with counterfeits or theft or anything else. How can a single bill be a nuisance if you know people will carry them? Why even have them in circulation otherwise? If dealing with a customer who has a single legitimate $100 bill is a nuisance the same way 1000 pennies can be, something is very, very wrong with the business.
Again, it’s not illegal to have a policy to not accept large bills. Nor is it illegal to have a policy not to accept ANY bills by the same reasoning.
Then you’ve never bought coffee at Starbucks. Because they won’t make it for you until you pay. Chicken and the egg.
You’ve never ordered food at a fast counter service before? You’ve led an interesting life.
Or purchased gas, or any of the other thousands common scenarios where payment comes first.
The statement was obviously ridiculous, perhaps purposely so?
I’m pretty sure that statement was exaggerated both because it’s hard to imagine he has never paid first and also , because in my experience the places where they do make the coffee before you pay don’t actually give you the coffee before you pay. They might set it down on the counter before you pay but that’s not really giving it to you before you pay any - nobody thinks that an employee placing an item kept behind the counter ( such as cigarettes or over the counter medication ) onto the counter before you pay constitutes the store giving you the item before you have paid.
Or, for that matter, placing an item in a grocery cart. Or taking an article of clothing to the check-out register at a retail store.
In fact, one of the few places that I can think of that matches that behavior is a restaurant…where you actually use the item before you pay for it.
Or at a place like a barber, or auto mechanic where the work is done before you pay for it. Unlike the typical coffee shop, they agree to enter a transactional relationship before payment is made, so the concept of a debt would seem to apply.
There’s a coffee shop i sometimes go to where I’ve been handed a cup of coffee while I’m still dithering about which pastry to buy. I’ve started sipping the coffee before i paid. I certainly can happen at a coffee shop.
But of course I’ve also gone to places where you pay first.
Right.
If you deposit large amounts of cash, most banks have a small fee. Then of course cash can lead to theft, either robberies or by employee. Hold up insurance is a cost. Then, after the store is closed two employees (one of which is usually a manager- type) have to spend 1/2 hour to an hour counting, recounting and checking. Then the cash must be deposited or secured. Overall, cash is usually slightly cheaper than the 2% or so CC companies charge.
Oddly, a buddy who was a gas station manager asked me a similar question when I was a Fed. He said people get irate, scream “for ALL debts” and hassle the staff. I said that isn’t really what “for all debts” meant, but to defuse some of the idiots, just say “well, we can take it, if you insist, but we do not have that much change, we only have (fill in small amount between $20 and $40) in change.” (even if you can, lie, how do they know?)
Right.
It is in the case of the OP and a coffee shop, which is the kind of money under discussion. The cop would be annoyed, too.
Well, in the case of your $200K car, the sale and registration would not be complete, and yes Title 31 regulators would have an issue with it. (Form 8300 must be filled out).
Form 8300, you will need SSN, etc.
Tip jar.
Yeah, stores often do. But not for several of them. And then, not having change for a $20 would really piss people off. My Local Grocery store will often take them, especially for large purchases (not hard to rack up $83 in groceries).
Everyone’s missing my point.
If the store/whatever has a sign saying “we don’t take cash” and everyone can see that before they make the purchase - that’s perfectly legal. Or they tell you so, or the screen on the grocery scanner says “credit or debit only - press OK to proceed” - perfectly legal.
What I’m asking, and what everyone is dancing around - is when does a transaction become a debt. As the example, if I’m given a meal at a restaurant, or I’ve filled the car with gas, etc. the crocery scanner does not warn me, etc. - I have accepted the proffered transaction and now have a debt to the merchant to complete the transaction. IF THEY DID NOT WARN ME IN ADVANCE then I have a debt that they must now accept legal tender for.
This is a specific technical legal question - when does an offer of transaction become a complete transaction and a debt is owed to settle it? Lawyers only can answer that authoritatively. The rest of us are just waving our hands.
This is ignoring issues like big bills, nuisance amounts of pennies, etc. Or - “come back for your change on Monday when the manager is here…”
(And - separate question - if in that case I leave the cash and walk out with my groceries, how have I broken any laws? What are the police going to do? Why would they bother to respond?)