Mr. Kennedy
You are not reading what I am writing.
Wicca means Male Witch
The Old Ways are the Old Ways. Which have been around before the chruch was created.
Today’s society has named us Wicca, Wiccans and New Age Spiritualists.
I never Said that Wicca was the original. I said I am a follower of the Old Ways. Midwives, Apothecaries, healing helping by using Nature and Ritual.
Once again my first paragraph said “termed Wicca”
Silversoul,
I have no problem with you, Wiccans, or witches in general practicing whatever religion floats your boat. For that matter, I have no problem with the worship of Satan if people actually wish to do it (though I am aware of no dedicated worshippers of a literal Satan in existance, nor have I ever seen evidence of such, dispite DITWD’s claim that they exist). However, I think where you (and Pagandream before you) are having problems is that you’re long on assertion and short on evidence.
For instance:
and
seem to imply that the “Old Ways” are, in fact, old. That you practice a religion which is ancient, and that was practiced long ago. Fine. But if you’re going to claim that your ways are old, the purpose of this board (fighting ignorance) requires that you expand on that subject, and provide a reasoned explaination of why we should believe that. Perferably using first hand sources.
So what are the Old Ways, specifically? How did you come to know them? Were they praticed by ancient peoples? If so, who and when? What documentation is there of it? How were the ways passed down from ancient times to now? How do your specific rituals correspond to rituals used in times past?
People are not asking for you to repeat yourself, they’re asking for substantation. You apparently believe that the religion you practice is an old one. So why do you believe that? Have you seen sources that have convinced you of the Old Ways oldness? If so, what are they?
It appears to me that John W. Kennedy has indeed read your posts, and you’ve obviously read his, but I’m not sure you’ve understood them. Your claim, as it appears to me, is that Wicca is a new term (though an old word meaning necromancer or warlock) for the religion you practice, but that while the use of Wicca is new, the religion you pratice is old. John W. Kennedy’s claim, on the other hand, appears to be that not just is the use of Wicca new, but that the religion as a whole is. That the Old Ways are not that old, at least as they are practiced now.
Which one of you is right, I do not know. But I do think that saying simply that “[t]he Old Ways are the Old Ways” and expecting that to serve as evidence will not do in the fight against ignorance.
Despite my efforts, this thread appears to continue to diverge from “What is the origin of the phrase ‘Colder that a witch’s tit’?” and to “Is Wicca really an old religion or a new one pretending to be old?”
Good post, Amok. In the interest of clarity, let me point out that Silversoul (and pagandream before) seem to be saying that there are a lot of new jump-on-the-bandwagon newage pagan wiccans out there, who said "Hey, they’re no longer burning and stoning witches, I want to be one. " 
However, there is some small subset of people who have been practicing the “old ways” passed down through their family traditions, kept in secret as a necessity. These folk now claim the label wiccan or witch, perhaps because of the popularization of the titles. And they do feel they are practicing the same as their ancestors from those times.
The question becomes what constitutes evidence.
Colibri, I believe whore’s hearts could be checked surgically. Not the most pleasant suggestion, but certainly better than the alternative.
What anatomical studies of whores have been made? It occurs to me that if we are to assume that whores’ hearts have a substantially different temperature than those of non-whore persons, then there is no reason to necessarily assume that said hearts would occupy the same position in the body. Perhaps the heart might be accessible via preexisting bodily aperatures?
Actually, Wicca & Neopaganism do follow some of the “old ways”, but thru a re-engineered process, ie they can only follow as much of the old ways as is known by Archeologists.
There is a slight possiblity of a bit of oral tradition being handed down, also.
Look at the way they have attempted to re-create the worship of Mitra, for eg.
I am sure detailed anatomical studies have been made (albeit of an amateur nature), but they have rarely included the cardiac apparatus. Jack T. Ripper is the only investigator I can think of, and his data are largely unpublished.
This line of investigation will undoubtedly be the most expensive of the lot. I’m working on a grant application now.
Don’t go there. You’ll have to answer to the Coca-Cola company. Anyway, his speciality was bodily fluids. His cardial research was totally enfarced.
Thank you Irishman, very well stated. I am going thru my library and enlisting the help of members of my coven to provide resource and reference information. It will take a few days to compile it but I am up for the challenge.
Sorry to jump in this late in the game, but I found this thread pretty interesting and am volunteering my own witchy self for testing purposes.
I think the main problem would be finding a well-digger, as most places don’t use wells anymore, do they? My city’s on an aquifer, so I’ll take a look around… well, a feel around. Go pinching merrily into the night. Topless, for comparison’s sake.
(On the beaten dead horse of the wicca-witchcraft issue, do christians today practice the same thing they practiced two thousand years ago? Not even close. Since a big part of wicca is making it up out of your head, I don’t see how some of my sister wiccans can argue that it’s a tradition passed down through generations. Sure, some small things remain, but things change and that’s not a bad thing.)
I’m considering how to acquire a brass monkey. Maybe we could get our hands on a chimp and one of those arrangements they use to bronze baby shoes. Close enough.
Yours,
WillowGirl
Strictly speaking, there were no Christians two thousand years ago.
However, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Coptic, and some other Christian bodies are in pretty clear continuity going back to the 3rd century or so. Before then, it gets harder to tell about ritual, because Christians were a fairly small and tight-knit group, and didn’t spend much time explaining to each other, in writing, things that they already knew. As far as doctrine goes, most of the really important heresies came up before that era, and it is clear from the record that, in each case, the mainstream of the Church pretty much rejected them freely, and in a body.
The Arian affair is the chief exception to the above description. (The later Nestorian and Monophysite controversies, still not extinct, require fairly serious grounding in philosophy even to understand; as far as Joe Sixpack is concerned, they’re a distinction without a difference.) But even in the case of Arianism, it is worthy of note that the vote at the council of Nicea was overwhelmingly against Arius, and that it was only his personal magnetism and his sponsorship by disaffected members of the imperial family that allowed his heresy to continue beyond Nicea.
In short, mainstream Christianity, outside of the Calvinist branches, remained substantially the same from about 300 to 1950 (beyond 1950, who can tell what future historians will say?), and there is no particular evidence of much change prior to 300. There have been waves of fashion in emphasis, and occasionally doctrines have been enunciated that never were before, usually because no-one had ever denied them before. The main exceptions are certain post-Reformation RC developments involving the place of the Papacy (which isn’t exactly under the head of “doctrine,” anyway) and the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a vexing and controversial subject even within RCism (No RC’s are allowed to contradict me on this until they’ve looked up the “co-redemptrix” dispute.), and at any rate still a secondary issue compared to such fundamental matters as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Atonement.
Sure there are well-diggers. My house is on a well and it was built in 1993. All 16 houses in my sub-division are on a well – gotta be, this far out in the boonies.
Anyway, I love the expression “XXX than a witch’s tit”. My wife and I use it all the time, and we are not particular to temperature (hot or cold) and have gone well beyond it (e.g., He was stupider than a witch’s tit!"). Its gotten so bad that I have to be careful not to use the metaphor at work by mistake . . .
It took some time and this is just one holiday but there is some interesting information and some references for additional research.
Christmas: the word brings to mind chill winds, falling snow and long nights spent near a thick fir tree covered in ornaments and topped with a star, the gentle twinkling of its soft lights and the abundant presents lying bright and quiet beneath it holding an unspoken promise of hidden joy.
Christmas: the word calls up the fragrances and images of wreaths woven of holly, ivy and pine, of Yule logs of oak or apple snapping in a cheery fire, of ginger and butter and cinnamon cookies left out on special plates by hopeful children, a gift for a whimsical old elf warmly wrapped in red and white, who shimmies down chimneys in the oddest sort of way.
Yet, for Christians, the season revolves around the birth of the Child of Light, the Unconquered Son born beneath a brilliant star while lying in a hayrack in a humble animal’s stall: the Light of the World born to save all mankind from the Darkness of an endless night. How, one might wonder, did the most sacred event of the Christian year become firmly entwined in the minds of most people with the holly and the ivy, the wreath and the decorated tree, Santa and his reindeer? The answer is one which some Christians might find uncomfortable, though that discomfort is unnecessary: indeed, the Coming of the Light has always been celebrated at this time of year, probably since the dawn of mankind, and the Christian Birth of Jesus is a lovely and grace-filled accompaniment to the ancient hope and wonder of the season.
The Romans called the period of the year between our December 17 and January 6 SOLSTICE, or “Sun Stands Still.” There is a Solstice-tide in summer, also, between June 18 and July 9. These two pivots of the year mark the ultimate return of longer days and warmer seasons (this occurs at the Winter Solstice, which is the topic of this article) and the eventual return of the long nights and short, snow-shrouded days of winter (this occurs at the Summer Solstice.) All peoples in all places of the world mark the coming of the Solstices with celebration, and it is the revolution of time from Winter Solstice to Summer Solstice and back again which gives us the symbol of the WREATH: woven from evergreen boughs which do not die in winter and decorated with those plants which put out fruit in the chill season (holly and ivy,) the wreath symbolizes the endless cycling of the undying year, a token of hope in the snow and ice of Northern climes (for the making and hanging of evergreen wreaths is part of the Norse celebration of YULE) that summer will return again, as surely and intractably as the spinning of a wheel.
It is in the depths of winter that the human heart has always yearned for the sun, the “Pure Light of High Summer” as the Greeks called that sacred child of the most high Zeus who was born and laid in a winnowing-basket in winter (which is the growing season in Greece, a turn-about viewpoint of the meaning of the season.) A few of the symbols of this baby include the ivy, the golden apple, and the pine cone – all popular symbols with which we grace our homes even today during that period which the Greeks called Lenaia, and during which they celebrated the nativity of Dionysos or, as He was called in some parts of Greece, Bacchus.
The Lenaia celebrations continued throughout medaeval Christian times in a half-remembered, semi-mocking form which was smiled upon by Church fathers: December in parts of Europe (particularly those areas bordering the mediterranean, including France) one thousand years after the advent of Christianity was the month of a special feast known as “Feast of Fools.” At this feast, which was held in local churches, a “fool priest” was chosen from among the masses by the clergy itself, and a banquet was held in the church itself, in honor of none other than Bacchus/Dionysos. The “fool priest” held a “fool’s mass” prior to the feasting, part of the liturgy of which was as follows:
Introibo ad altare Bachi-
(Let us go unto Bacchus’ altar)
Ad eum que letificat cor hominis
(and he who brings joy to the heart of man)
Petemus, aufer a nobis, quesumus, Bacche,
(shall take from us, please Bacchus,)
Cuncta vestimenta nostram…
(these rainments, that we may be [found] worthy…)
Why, one might ask, would the Holy Roman Church have encouraged such proceedings? And encourage it did, up to the time of the Protestant Reformation, when all celebrations of Christmas were banned due to their largely Pagan themes: the celebration of the season languished for nearly three hundred years, until in the Victorian era the celebrations became popular once more. However, the ancient church (between approximately 400 CE and 1400 CE) sought to “adopt” Pagan themes and rituals into its own scripture and liturgy, in order to draw the masses to Jesus and away from such godforms as Mithras (whose epiphany occured as a birth from a rock on December 25; this epiphany still exists in Christianized form as “The Rock of Ages” and the adoption of Mithras’ “birthday” as the date of the birth of Jesus.)
The Christian adoption of Pagan symbols and celebrations was a brilliant idea, brought forth by the world’s greatest empire when it found itself being torn asunder beneath the weight of invading barbarian tribes. Waves of invasion caused the Roman Empire to lose control of previously-conquered areas of its far-flung ramparts. The popular new religion of Christianity offered the embattled emperors of Rome a handle on the situation: if the masses within Rome, those living in her ramparts, AND the invading barbarians could be converted to this new religion (one of the new tenets of which, under the aegis of Rome, would become OBEDIENCE TO TEMPORAL RULERS), and this religion could be mandated by a Christian emperor or emperors solely from Rome, then loyalty of the converts to their Christian vows and emperor would thereby save the empire from total collapse. This brilliant scheme turned the “Roman Empire” of the ancient and Classical world into the new, “Holy Roman Empire” of the Christianized world, and the Byzantine era was born; an era which would survive, thrive, and rule the hearts, minds, bodies, and lands of the people of Europe for ONE THOUSAND YEARS (apx. 500 to apx. 1500 CE.)
From the Christian Old Testament, too, can be gained some idea of the importance and antiquity of Solstice celebrations to the inhabitants of ancient lands. In Jeremiah may be found the solemn injunction: “thou shalt not decorate trees with gold and silver as the heathen do…” The words PAGAN and HEATHEN were coined by the sophisticated, city-dwelling Christians of Rome sometime in the year 700 CE, to describe (in terms of ridicule and condescention) the country-dwelling people who still held on to the “Old Ways” and worshipped the “Old Gods” – bumpkins, out-dwellers, simpletons, PAGANI. Prior to this time, these words meant nothing more than “country- dweller”, if in fact they existed as actual terms at all. Modern worshippers of the “Old Gods” who follow the “Old Ways” use these terms proudly, to describe a non-Judeo-Christian (also non-Islam) method of worship.
Ancient and Classical Rome, up to about 500 CE, celebrated a Midwinter festival known as “Saturnalia”. It is this festival from which the modern custom of giving presents is derived (done in ancient Rome for the dual purpose of honoring the ancestors who bestowed the gift of life, and to teach generosity/banish miserliness – this message exists in modern times as the delightful persona and adventures of “Scrooge”.) Ancient and Classical Romans of all classes would “deck their halls” with evergreen, holly, and ivy branches, and burn abundant candles, following ancient proscriptions to “drive back the darkness: call in the Unconquered Light!” Also from the Saturnalia comes the concept of a “Christmas Break”, wherein the season becomes a time of cheer, relaxation, and celebration. These attitudes are a natural response to the season, which is why so much “depression” and “burn-out” occurs when misplaced calls to consumerism overshadow the reflective, prayerful, joyous customs of Solstice, which have been in existence for so long in the history of mankind that they might almost be considered “instinctive.”
Many Neolithic and Paleolithic sacred structures have been found to be “Solar Temples”, which are constructed in just such a way as to compliment the appearance of light during the Winter Solstice. Many of these structures, which are often dark and forbidding at any other time of the year, contain symbolic, spiritual carvings which are struck by bright shafts of sunlight on the Solstice, the sudden light illuminating specific chambers or stones and turning the mind to the warm half of the year which the light promises and heralds even in the “iron grip” of winter. Such structures exist everywhere: a few well-known ones include Stonehenge, Gavranis, New Grange, Long Kennet, Chaco Canyon, and Kukulkan.
Santa Claus, and other European Christmastime activities, too, appear to be hold-overs from Neolithic Solstice ceremonies. What were the ceremonies, and who were the people who gave us such patently non-Christian and seemingly silly Christmas traditions as Santa, the Hobby Horse, and the Morris Dance?
Roughly five thousand years ago, a large, powerful and aggressive group of people swept out of the enormously wide plains of north-central Asia, over the Caucasus mountains. They were unlike any group of people seen before – uniformly pale-skinned, with eyes and hair of various colors – and they brought with them startling new technologies and weaponry, against which the cities of India and Europe, and even Egypt itself, could not stand. One of these technological advances was the horse as vehicle, another was the chariot, and a third – perhaps the most devastating of all – was the ability to forge weapons from that impervious metal which would come to be known as iron, after the name of the invaders themselves; Aryans.
It is from these steppes tribes – whose descendants would be the Scythians and, after invasion of China and subsequent re-peopling of the steppes of Northern Asia by half-asian, half-aryan (or Caucasian) stock, the Mongols and the Huns – that such Christmastime myths as Santa, the Hobby Horse, and the Morris Dance come. The horse was a sacred creature to the ancient Aryans, the carrier of light and wealth, and to ride one was to experience the feelings of the great gods who, to the ancients of the steppes, were symbolized by light and fire. It is these beliefs and symbols which link the bizzare persona of the “hobby horse” to modern European Christmas celebrations of light, fire, and gift-giving wealth.
Among the steppes people even today, a shamanic religious practice exists in which the shaman sets up a pole beneath the smoke-hole of the main ceremonial hut sometime during midsummer. During the midwinter ceremonies, the shaman climbs this pole in order to mount the smokehole and sit atop the hut, where he will receive visions for the future of the tribe. Subsequently, he climbs back down the pole through the smokehole (the hut’s “chimney”) and “gifts” the tribe with his visions. The colors RED and WHITE – as in Santa’s infamous suit – are sacred to the people of the Asian steppes, as well as to the people of Lapland who are their close cousins, because these colors are the hue of that plant which the shamans of the people use to help them gain their Solstice visions: the Amanita Muscaria mushroom. Further midwinter ceremonies performed by the tribe’s shaman or group of shamans include ceremonial dances with rattles tied to the feet or body; the dance itself is done to enchant the light and persuade it to come back, the rattles used to drive away the darkness of midwinter. The bell-jingling “Morris Dances” held in modern times throughout Europe are a survival of this practice.
Further, the people of the Asian steppes and Lapland rely heavily to this day upon a certain animal which they have utilizes as a source of food, clothing, and shelter for millennia: the REINDEER, completing Santa’s interestingly queer habit of flying on a sleigh (“chariot”) pulled by – of all creatures! – rendeer.
Also close cousins to both the steppes tribes (via the Burgundian royal house which united with the Huns prior to the invasion of Rome) and to modern Laplanders and Finlanders, are the Germanic and Norse people, whose ancient midwinter celebration gives us the alternate name commonly used for “Christmas”: YULE. It is from the Norse traditions that we derive the “Yule Log” ceremony which, when properly done, consists of burning an oak or fruit-tree log three-quarters to ash in the Yule fire. Its core, or other unburnt but still flammable part, is decorated after the season has passed, and is carefully kept to kindle the Yule fire of the following year.
Yule, to Norse Pagans, is in fact NOT a single holiday, but a SEASON OF THE YEAR which stretches from approximately the middle of October to the beginning of January, and celebrates the pre-winter slaughtering and hunting season, and the laying-up of provender for the following winter. During this time anciently, a male piglet was hand-raised and deeply loved by each family: prior to the Solstice itself, vows were taken on the “bristles” of this boar. To many ancient peoples, the pig was considered a messenger to the gods once it was killed (the bear took on this role among various other peoples, such as those in Northern Great Britain or the Ainu of Japan): it was also anciently believed that pigs could take away and cleanse evil from people. Therefore, this beloved pig was sacrificed and became the centerpiece of the Yule dinner for the ancient Norse, who understood implicitly that in order for the self to live, something else must die. Blood from this sacrifice was sprinkled about the family hall (to sprinkle with blood was to bless in the ancient mind: indeed, Jesus Himself is known as “the Lamb of the world who dies for our sins”, and many Christians call the knowledge of their Lord and their acceptance of His sacrifice “Being washed in the Blood of the Lamb.”)
From many cultures, but most notably the Norse and the Celts, we derive the symbol of the Yule tree hung with ornaments. This practice derives from hanging trees with baubles which symbolized that which was wished for in the coming year: the tree itself derives, again, from the practice of shamans climbing up and down the smoke-pole, which in shamanic cosmogeny represents the “world tree”, or that axis around which the upper, middle, and lower “earths” revolve.
For Christians and Pagans alike, this time of year is a time for giving gifts in memory of gifts received, a time for joy and thanksgiving, rest and peace on earth. The symbols of the Season, whether one calls it “Christmas” or “Yule” or “Satunalia”, are beautiful and ancient, and speak deep truths to the souls of all of us. My family celebrates a certain ritual which I would like to share with you: it is the ritual of giving gifts in the name of an ancestor (grandmother, grandfather, father, aunt, etc.) and of the giver whispering into the ear of the recipient a special blessing for the coming year. The giving of gifts is an after-dinner treat, prefaced by the following Solstice Tale:
"We are met here at the still point of the turning year, in a space between the Worlds, to celebrate the passing of the old year and the birth of the new, the turning of the Wheel one notch further, the re-enactment of the age-old Mystery of the return of the sun…
"Never let us forget the time- before-time, when we shared the earth with the gods and spirits, and spoke the language of bird and beast, when we danced and sang the songs of creation and remembering…
"Back through the years, across the bridge of Time, we call out to the Rulers of the Four Winds of winter to come forth and join us in our celebration. Come, bright Lords and Ladies, Ancestors, Creatures of fur and feather, horn and scale; come bird and beast, sun and star; come evergreen tree and swiftly-fading flower in the grass…
"In this place and time, joy shall abound and sorrow be cast underground! The ivy that hangs by the door shows the path between the Worlds, where the sun eternally rises to warm those who seek the wisdom of the Shining Ones and who sing in chorus and in carol to usher in the newborn year…
“Frost and ice muffle the Earth in impenetrable cold, but be still and you may hear the beating of the steady Heart of Creation which beats, too in the chests of all those who go in search of the ancient Solstice traditions. The greatest of the gifts which our ancestors gave us was the belief that all is gained when all seems lost; set your teeth to face the wind, beat down the snow and tread the frost!”
After this preface, gifts and blessings are given, and we settle in to enjoy Yule cookies with coffee or eggnog, and to enjoy each other’s company even more!
BIBLIOGRAPHY AND SUGGESTED READING:
“Discovering Christmas Customs and Folklore.” Margaret Baker, Shire Publications.
“4000 Years of Christmas.” Earl W. Count and Alice Lawson, Ulysses Press.
“The Solstice Evergreen.” Sheryl Ann Karas, Aslan Publishing.
“The Winter Solstice.” Shirley Toulson, Jill Norman & Hobhouse Publishers.
“The Winter Solstice: The Sacred Traditions of Christmas.” John Matthews, Quest Books (thanks for much of the inpiration for our Christmas gift-giving ritual goes to this book, its author and publisher: an EXCELLENT book with many wonderful Solstice and Christmas traditions waiting to happen!)
“When Santa Was a Shaman.” Tony Van Renterghan, Llewellyn Publications.
Slversoul makes a couple of grievous errors (although these are apparently in the referenced sources):
It should be noted that this almost perfectly fails to describe the actual situation. Many of the “East Germanic” ethnoi (Goths and Vandals) had already been converted to Christianity at the time that they invaded the Empire. Notwithstanding, their Christianity notably failed to inspire them with loyalty to the emperors; Gaiseric’s Vandals, indeed, were and remain even to this day a byword for wanton destruction, and Euric (king of the “Visigoths”) definitely seemed more interested in supplanting than succoring the Empire. The Lombards refused even to sign a foedus with the Empire.
Nor are the “Holy” Roman Empire and the Byzantine (or Eastern, or Later, Roman) Empire to be spoken of in the same breath. The Roman Empire in the west was legally ended when Odo(v)acar returned the western regalia to Constantinople after he deposed Romulus August(ul)us, the last western emperor. The empire in the west was “revived” by Pope Leo III in 800 when he crowned Charlemagne Augustus (which he had no right to do). The epithet “Holy” was not used until the reign of Frederick I Barbarossa, in an attempt to assign greater prestige to what had, by that time, effectively become the kingdom of Germany.
This is misinformation that is periously close to racism – not that this would, unfortunately, be the first time that the Aryan myth has reared its ugly head.
The Indo-European-speaking peoples did not bring smelted iron with them from the steppe, nor do their designations have anything to do with “iron”. The Indic invaders of the Indus Valley styled themselves arya – a word which seems to mean “lord”, and which may have also been the self-designation of an Indo-European-speaking tribe. “Iron”, however, derives from Proto-Celtic *is@rno- ("@" is used here to symbolize the schwa), the “holy” or “Heavenly” metal (given that early iron would have been meteoric in nature, an obvious appellation). The smelting of iron seems to have been invented by Anatolian, probably Hittite, craftsmen late the second millenium BCE, and to have been perfected by Assyria – a decidely non-IndoEuropean culture – several centuries later. (The invention of iron smelting in Chou China, judging by the techniques used and the end product, was probably an independent discovery).
It should also be noted that at no time have Indic-speaking peoples beeen recorded historically on the trans-Caspian steppe (although their ancestors probably came from there across the Iranian plateau). The Scythians, Sarmatians, and Alans, certainly, and the Cimmerians probably, spoke Iranian languages; Tocharian-speaking people occupied the oases of Dzungaria (or Sinkiang). Nor can the ancestors of today’s Indo-European languages be fitted into the Pontic-Caspian area (although most – not all, however – linguists, archeologists, and ethnologists believe that the area was occupied by peoples speaking the ancestor of the Indo-European languages no later than 4500 BCE). Of course, “Caucasian” is not to be equated with “Aryan”, steppe origin, or “Indo-European”; for what the label of “Caucasian” is worth (other than as the desgnation of a somewhat obscure group of languages), Tamils, Arabs, Berbers, and Estrucans are no less “Caucasian” than Hindus, Armenians, and Italians; and those stereotypical “Aryans”, the German-speaking peoples, show evey evidence of never having learned to speak the language properly ({i]cf.* English “father” and Latin “pater”).
A few minor nitpicks…Saturnalia, as can be seen from the name was a festival to honor Saturn, along with another festival, honoring Ops, his wife. The Romans did have festivals to honor ancestors, but that wasn’t one of them. The Saturnalia was largely a festival honoring agriculture, Saturn being the god of agriculture, and Ops the goddess of the earth, where prayers were offered for a good crop the upcoming year. Also, don’t confuse the Saturnalia with the festival, taking place around the same time, of Sol Invictus, and the birth of Mithras (which the reference to the “unconquered light” seems to refer to. That seems to be more likely a winter solstice festival, as Mithras, especially in his identity as Sol Invictis, drove back physical, as well as moral darkness. Holly was a symbol of Saturn, and that’s why it was used in this festival. Also, it’s a mistake to say the Saturnalia wasn’t “commercial”. A lot of money was spent each year, especially by the rich, on gifts and food. Banquets were held on each of the days of the festival, which at one point, lasted as long as seven days, and there was a great deal of competition among the upper class to have the “most elaborate” banquet.
Aaaaand a whipsaw back to the OP.
As I am officially apparently not a newbie anymore, I guess I better do my part in all this.
:heavy sigh:
I guess I better do the husky’s nuts. I live where there are many, and I even have a friend who mushes . . .
Now, do the dogs have to be moving? This could create some problems for actually taking the temperature, Unless somebody’s willing to donate the required medical equipment, of course. Between me and the musher, we may be able to convince the dogs to wear some kind of sensor . . . How many dogs should the sample size be?
BTW - has anybody else heard the variant “Colder than a witch’s tit with a brass bra on”? Can we add this to the investigation? Is it any colder than when it’s bare? I mean, other than subjectively. IMHO, ANY woman in a brass bra is gonna have cold ones . . .eeeew, just the thought of that cold metal touching my warm parts makes me cringe.
:off to consider the logistics of convincing several sled dogs to wear sticky pads and wires on their nuts - never mind how we’re gonna hook 'em up, and will Alice still be my friend after I ask her about this:
Tisiphone
How does Ma Kali, the Divine Mother and Black Goddess of Dakshineswar figure into all of this? Her breasts are often exposed too, underneath her necklace of skulls and her long red tongue. Who’s willing to check if they’re cold?
Galloping Geezer: It should be noted that a general curse used at that time was ‘ods bodkin or God’s Bodkin (Goddam) was referring to the needle to find the guilt or innocence of the accused… or answer to a question of a general nature where the curser is confounded. The male dominated church and society lived in fear of any woman of strength and superior intellect…e.g. Joan of Ar
It should be noted that a general curse used at that time was ‘ods bodkin or God’s Bodkin (Goddam) was referring to the needle to find the guilt or innocence of the accused… or answer to a question of a general nature where the curser is confounded. The male dominated church and society lived in fear of any woman of strength and superior intellect…e.g. Joan of Ar
Utter nonsense. “'Od’s bodkin” (which, by the way, I have never seen used as a curse at all) is a contraction of “God’s bodykin”, i.e., “God’s little body”, i.e., “Christ’s little body”, i.e., “communion wafer”.
As to women and the Church in the middle ages, I suggest you look, for starters, at Catherine of Siena and Hilda of Whitby.
Much as I’d rather conduct thermal experiments with witch’s teats, I have to disagree with some of this post. First, a word means what people who use it say it means. Oxford’s is certainly one use. I run, but that doesn’t make me a stocking - people can tell the difference by the context. The original column was addressing a different use than you put it to. No big deal. Like “run”, “witch” gets used in many ways. IIRC, the Witches of Eastwick didn’t exactly worship the devil, they just screwed him. That use doesn’t follow that one definition from Oxford’s, and meaning was successfully conveyed. It still doesn’t make the dictionary wrong. If I were to guess, I would guess that the term “witch” has been in use so long, that even wiccans assumed it applied to them.
The only bible I know that is based on the King James Bible is the King James Bible, which is based on an earlier work. (The English in that Bible was old fashioned, even then.) English bible’s are based on translations of Greek texts. The reason there are so many versions is partly that English changes, partly that new finds are made, partly that the “original” texts differ, and partly that no translation can possible cover all flavors of the original texts.
The witch trials of the time, while barbarous by our standards, were not really intended as torture. Most of Europe followed a form (pagan) “Roman Law” in which “being put to the question” involved torture. England evolved (pagan) germanic laws. During the Renaissance, which is when most witch trials were held, what we call torture was common law. Much effort was expended to make the trials “honest” - they just had incredibly horrible ideas of honest trials. (IIRC, King James I did write a treatise on determining if a suspect was a witch, before assuming the throne.) In England, admitting to being a witch under what we would call torture was not sufficient to be convicted. One had to admit to being a witch in front of a panel and not being tortured.
Christian dogma does not blame another being for mistakes. St. Augustine, whose views held sway for about 1000 years, taught, perhaps evented the concept, free will. The will is the power by which you make choices; a free will is one that can not be coerced. Thus, you are responsible for your choices. I wish I knew more of Aquinas, but “blaming the devil” is not Christian dogma, especially in the Middle Ages. I’m less sure of the Renaissance, but I don’t believe any Christian group has ever taught that “the devil made me do it”. Many do not accept the devil as an actual entity, more as a metaphor. I assume what you mean to say is that you do not believe God was born fully human in the form of Jesus, and all the creeds within Christian dogma.
(BTW, Augustine also taught that “to sin” was to love something that would eventually cause you unhappiness. I.e., to love anything that was not eternal. For example, it was a sin for him to love his best friend, because when his friend died, he was torn apart. He wrote an incredibly moving poem describing his grief, btw.) He taught that he should have loved his friend “in God”, because then he would have known his friend was only eternal in an afterlife, and not on this world. The sin was entrusting his happiness to transient things - his friend, who died, and their mutual love (which could have died first). From what I’ve read and heard, he did not associated sin with guilt, either, but that would be another thread.)
No one is perpetuating myths, they are just using the term differently than you. Their usage is still accepted.
Now, about that experiment …