College Is Not For Everyone

[Eva_Luna]

@msmith537

@Eva_Luna

The high school I graduated from sends something like 80% of its grads on to higher education (at least initially). This society simply doens’t need 80% white-collar workers. The U.S. educational system largely ignores a huge hunk of midlevel jobs. It’s silly and conterproductive.

Given that the number of adult males with college degrees is like 15-30%, I would say your school is not a representative cross section of America. I’m assuming that it is probably in a mostly white, affluent town?

In some ways yes, in some ways not so much. Yes, the majority of residents are white, but there are also quite significant non-white populations and a VERY wide range of socioeconomic things going on. Parts of town are made up of huge lakefront mansions, and other parts of town have gang shootings on a regular basis and large numbers of schoolchildren eligible for free or reduced-price lunches. Northwestern University also skews the college attendance numbers, for sure - many of my friends were children of professors, so yes, there was an expectation that they would go to college.

[furt]

@msmith537

WRT to the second point, I believe there is a value to going to college just for the sake of going. It provides an opportunity for many people to become exposed to people and ideas that they would not normally have been exposed to between the ages of 18 and 22. It provides a somewhat protected forum for those students to explore those new ideas and relationships.
…
There’s also an expectation that if you have a college degree, jobs where you actually “do stuff” are now beneath you. I see nothing wrong with getting a liberal arts degree at Harvard and becoming a highly educated auto mechanic. Although mechanical engineer seems like a more logical degree choice. But the fact is that person would probably be looked at as a “failure” and a “waste” for not parlaying his degree into a lucrative job at a hedge fund.

While agreeing with your sentiments, part of the problem is that, due to the skyrocketing cost, graduates feel they have to get a good-paying job just to take care of the debt.

One consequence of the dysfunctional market for higher education is that we end up in an arms race that yields misspending on a massive scale. The resources devoted to administration, athletics, new buildings, and low payoff research is simply staggering. The most recent example comes from Jay P. Greene, Brian Kisida and Jonathan Mills, who report that “Wake Forest, Yale, MIT, Harvard, and Dartmouth spend more solely on administration per student than the average university spends on everything per student. The nearly $75,000 at Wake Forest and the nearly $60,000 at Yale per student spent on administration must buy some truly excellent administration.” All of this money must come from somewhere, and as state budgets continue to be squeezed by the economic turmoil, colleges will increasingly turn to students, and the students will increasingly turn to debt.

The human cost of such massive debt is incalculable. While many, such as myself, are managing to repay our borrowing without too much pain in terms of loss of career choice and/or a lower standard of living, many others are not so lucky. When debt loads are high, borrowers are forced to accept a lower standard of living, and often feel they cannot choose a less lucrative but more enjoyable career. Some are forced to put off marriage and children, move back in with their parents, and otherwise delay the traditional milestones of adulthood. But even these folks are viewed as lucky by the few who simply do not and never will make enough money to repay their loans.

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/09/the_amazing_college_debt_bubbl.html

[furt]

@msmith537

@Eva_Luna

The high school I graduated from sends something like 80% of its grads on to higher education (at least initially). This society simply doens’t need 80% white-collar workers. The U.S. educational system largely ignores a huge hunk of midlevel jobs. It’s silly and conterproductive.

Given that the number of adult males with college degrees is like 15-30%, I would say your school is not a representative cross section of America. I’m assuming that it is probably in a mostly white, affluent town?

The two numbers are not that out of whack. For one, the “number of adult males with college degrees” includes people in their 60s, from an era in a which “college is for everyone” was not the mantra. And why you’d limit it to males, I have no idea – in 2010, the clear majority of college students are women.

If 80% of Evanston students are going to college, how many graduate? The superduper smart ones might go to Northwestern, where 95% graduate. The not-quite-so-smarts will go to Illinois, where 83% will finish. The rest will go to places like Illinois State (69%), Loyola (68%), UIC (54%), Northern Illinois (48%), Southern Illinois (44%), Northeastern Illinois (20%) or Chicago State (14%).

So there is no contradiction whatsoever between 80% of HS graduates saying they intend to go to college, and only 40% or so actually ending up with a degree – which is right about where the rate is now.

[furt]

Oh and one more: if you think “college is for everyone” hasn’t gone too far:

The “college experience” programs represent the latest step in the concept of “mainstreaming” the disabled, including the cognitively disabled, in a process that began in 1973. … As Elise McMillan, co-director of the Center for Excellence in Developmental Disabilities at Vanderbilt University, which began what it calls a “Next Step” program for intellectually disabled young people this year, told the Chronicle of Higher Education, “[T]hey have the same dreams and aspirations as their brothers and sisters and other students.”

…

More alarmingly, although the programs in the past have been funded largely by state grants and private donations (as well as the tuition paid by their enrollees), the federal government is poised to dump large amounts of taxpayer money into them. In 2008 Congress extended federally guaranteed loans and Pell grants for low-income students to intellectually disabled students enrolled in transition, learning-skills and other “college experience” programs. Another 2008 law provides for federal grants to institutions of higher learning that set up such programs.

To repeat: Pell grants of taxpayer money going to the mentally handicapped so that they can have “a college experience.”
http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/09/college_for_the_intellectually.html

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

I find myself wishing there were more encouragement for unmotivated HS graduates to defer their college by a few years. I’m almost always pleased with the attitude my older (25 y.o.+)students have towards doing what my college courses require (on the most basic level: showing up on time, not bringing a live cell phone and a three course meal into class, handing in papers when the syllabus says they’re due, etc.) The percentage of my time and energy taken up by babysitting my 18-22 y.o. students is beyond belief.

A few years earning money and seeing the kinds of jobs that college grads get provides the maturity and motivation needed to take college a little bit seriously.

[Eonwe]

@even_sven

People with Bachelor’s degrees still make almost a million dollars more, over their lifetime, than those without. People with Master’s degrees tack on about another half-million. Sure, in the real world this doesn’t translate cleanly into instant money in your pocket, but its still abundantly clear that to get ahead in life you need a college degree.

And if I had put the roughly $40,000 my parents and I spent on my tuition into an investment portfolio I’d also likely make around a million dollars off of that over my lifetime.

@even_sven

What I object to is the idea that some unspecified “those people” are making an irrational decision to go to college and need our loving guidance about how to run their lives, whereas our own decisions to go to college is of course perfectly reasonable. If it’s such a good idea, why don’t you be the first to sign up?

I may be a bit het up about things, because I had numerous people over the course of my life- from guidance councilors to my own family- try to convince me that despite excellent grades I was not college material because finances were tight. If well-meaning people had had their say in my future, I’d probably be a secretary right now and I think the world would be missing out on a lot of what I have to contribute.

I understand your point; it happens all too often that those in authority are blinded by class in what they expect of young people (though I don’t think you’re seeing that at all in this thread). However, I think that despite this problem, the point raised in the OP, namely:

I really do believe that American culture has a very misguided view of higher education. It is seen as a victory to send every kid to college, even if those kids come out with a liberal arts degree that doesn’t give them any real job skills.

. . . is still valid. It might be that college was the right choice for you, but is it for everybody? The goal of sending ‘everyone’ to college is a joke. If the entire population goes to college, all that means is that we end up with more minimum-wage earners paying off ballooning college debts. It is a poor financial decision to go to school sometimes, and the higher percentage of the population going to college, the more people will not be able to get a financial return on their investment in their educations.

The institution is broken when it only encourages/educates about one option for the future.

@suranyi

Of all the days for a thread like this to start, today a study was published which showed that the economic benefits of a college education are higher than ever:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19850

“Workers with a college degree earned much more and were much less likely to be unemployed than those with only a high school diploma, according to the report”

The lie to those statistics is that anyone with a bachelor’s degree has proven their ability to commit to a job and to be somewhat forward-thinking. Of course people with degrees will make more on average, because on average they’re more likely to stick with a job and/or strive for personal growth than the pool of people that includes not only non-degreed people with those traits, but also non-degreed people who don’t have those traits.

IOW, the people who have successfully finished college have done so in part because of skills that will lead them to more lucrative employment in the future.

[WhyNot]

@furt

Oh and one more: if you think “college is for everyone” hasn’t gone too far:

I agree. And not just about the disabled, but about the people either too lazy or too unprepared or not intelligent enough for college.

There’s a storm a brewin’ at the Chicago City Colleges at the moment, because the new Chancellor is saying that perhaps we need to rethink our huge (and hugely expensive) remedial education track. Right now there’s no admission requirement other than a high school diploma or GED, and the school provides placement testing and remedial classes to those students who aren’t yet ready for college level classes. A lot of people are doing this on Pell Grants or MAP grants or other financial assistance, and never finishing a degree because…well, reasons vary, I suppose. But her point seems to be that we’re a college, not a college prep, and if people can’t do college level work when they come in, then maybe we shouldn’t let them in until they’re ready to college level work.

It’s getting ugly, with accusations of racism starting to fly, but I rather have to agree with her. It’s the City Colleges, not the City Schools, so why are we spending “$30 million a year in a system with a $457 million budget” to teach classes that aren’t college classes? This during a semester, I might add, where our Nursing Skills Lab has been closed all semester because they don’t have money in the budget to pay for teachers to staff it, yet each nursing student pays $900 (for first year students) or $1800 (for second year students) for the year in Lab fees on top of tuition and textbook costs.

Link to a Chicago Tribune editorial which the school sent out to all the students: Changing course

[John_Mace]

We really need to break free from the paradigm that education and work are two separate things. We should start integrating the two as early as possible.

College isn’t for everyone, but there is no reason that anyone should dismiss out of hand the idea of continuing to educate himself throughout his life.

[Dangerosa]

My middle class existence is a little different, I think, than some.

The people I hang with are all college degreed. Many with master’s, a few with doctorates.

The people I live near, the parents of my kid’s friends - most of them are skilled tradespeople. My daughter’s best friends dad is an electrician. Their mother is a non-degreed piano teacher. Across the street is the mechanic and is wife, the hairdresser. The sheet metal worker, the truck driver, the welder. Not all white, but pretty middle class. Some of them intend to see their kids go to college, many of them don’t. I encourage college for my kids, but we’ve had discussions with them about being dentists or mechanics - architects or plumbers. One of my son’s friend’s wants to be a butcher. One of my girlfriends, with a master’s herself, is encouraging her youngest son to become a carpenter - her father is a skilled woodworker (and an attorney, but that’s a hobby, he makes his living woodworking). I’d rather my daughter become a plumber than the public school teacher that is her current career ambition, but its her life, she gets to choose (and she is eleven, it will change).

I want my kids to get college degrees because I think that the way a degree - particularly a liberal arts degree - teaches you to think is a valuable thing - and because its an expense I can afford - and experience I can buy for my kids. But if they take that degree, then end up going to culinary school and becoming a chef (like a friend of mine) - more power to them.

[suranyi]

@furt

@suranyi

Of all the days for a thread like this to start, today a study was published which showed that the economic benefits of a college education are higher than ever:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19850

“Workers with a college degree earned much more and were much less likely to be unemployed than those with only a high school diploma, according to the report”

The higher-ed industry reported that the product it sells is more valuable than ever? Well, who are we to doubt them!

The National Center for Policy Analysis is not “the higher -ed industry” in any way. It is an independent think tank. The don’t get any more money if more kids go to college.

[Little_Bird]

I think people are looking at this incorrectly, like Trade School vs College are two irrevocable decisions that never the twain shall meet.

My cousin “tried” college for a year (not very hard, I might add) and failed miserably. Then he spent a couple years being a fuckup before getting things back on track. He is now going to a tech school learning house construction, working with his hands, and doing very well.

I know he would have graduated and been on a career track by now (and out of his parents’ house) if he had just started out in the tech school instead of college. Then, instead of being soured on the college experience, he might very well have put aside some money and gone to college later.

Maybe that’s what we should be telling kids who don’t really have a serious interest in college right now: Go to a tech school, get some job skills, make some money. Later, if you decide you want to, then you always have the opportunity to go back to college and get a different degree.

If my (future, un-conceived) kids don’t have an interest in college, that’s what I’ll be telling them. And I would be proud to have kids who end up as plumbers, contractors, carpenters, electricians, etc. If they are happy and making a legal living I would be proud of them.

[guizot]

@John_Mace

We really need to break free from the paradigm that education and work are two separate things. We should start integrating the two as early as possible.

Yes, and what happens at community colleges could easily be more integrated with high school education than it is now. The US has fallen into the mindset that “college” (i.e., academic study) is somehow the only way into the middle class, and so high school education sees college as its only goal: in high school, students have effectively only one option.

Not only does this limit what public education resources do for minors, but it also causes curriculum to decelerate, in order to accommodate each and every student.
I’m sure Germans would find this controversy strange. Their economy accepts a wider range of pathways to the middle class, and most importantly, its public programs (health care, etc.) are designed for this reality. In Germany, your whole future well-being doesn’t hinge on getting into “college.”

[furt]

@Dangerosa

But if they take that degree, then end up going to culinary school and becoming a chef (like a friend of mine) - more power to them.

Actually, a lot of chefs would say to ditch culinary school …

http://ruhlman.com/2010/09/so-you-wanna-be-a-chef—-by-bourdain-2.html

[furt]

@suranyi

@furt

The higher-ed industry reported that the product it sells is more valuable than ever? Well, who are we to doubt them!

The National Center for Policy Analysis is not “the higher -ed industry” in any way. It is an independent think tank. The don’t get any more money if more kids go to college.

The NCPA didn’t write the report. The College Board did, and they get tons of money if more kids go to college, with zero stake in whether or not those kids graduate and/or succeed.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@guizot

So much of what goes on in college, and what people do after college (whether they graduate or not), supports the OP’s claim–which isn’t controversial at all, in most countries. Nevertheless, public school technical education (in California, at least) is scandalously lacking. All too often it’s left to sketchy private schools that just get students horribly in debt.

This bears repeating over and over. I am currently attending an (admittedly low-end) state law school, and will hopefully graduate in three years with a JD. That will cost me roughly $26,000 in tuition.

There are truck driving schools which cost 90% of that, for a ~6 week CDL program. Not to say that you can’t make good money as a truck driver.

That’s not the point, though. The point is that unless trade/vocational schools are as tightly regulated and as well-funded as universities, you can’t blame anyone for choosing the latter, even the hopelessly unqualified.

[guizot]

@furt

Actually, a lot of chefs would say to ditch culinary school …

And few successful film makers have actually gone to film school. (Spielberg is a notable exception.)

[Bryan_Ekers]

And truckers sneer at pro-bono work!

Just kidding. I recently got an air-brake certificate after attending a weekend course that the army paid for, as a prelude to getting certified on the new Navistar 7000 trucks, when my unit finally gets one.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Why is the army buying commercial vehicles?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Barkis_is_Willin

My father made no bones about telling my siblings and I that he would offer no financial support for a “useless” liberal arts degree.

I’m guessing that most parents here at the SDMB strongly urge their children to not only obtain higher education, but also to excel at their schoolwork, participate in activities and generally make some positive contribution to society. There exist parents, however, who are perfectly content with their children getting C’s through high school and aiming for a career that requires no higher education. I have no problem with that. I do not feel bad about saying college isn’t for “those people over there.”

80% of new jobs in this country require higher education. Mostly that means college. Even those useless liberal arts degrees are useful if you have learned how to think. The problem si that too many liberal arts programs just teach you to memorize useless shit.

I like the German model (or at least what I understand to be the German model), all education is free but they make getting into the programs much more competitive. You want a masters in some useless liberal arts program? Great, you are either going to have to go to the USA and pay for it yourself or you are going to have to beat out all the other applicants for the small number of slots we make available for such a useless degree.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Why is the army buying commercial vehicles?

Tradition? It’s not a new practice; the Canadian Forces has a mix of customized and commercial logistics vehicles. Our current light-service truck is a painted-green Chevy Silverado. The Navistars have been modified for our use, but at heart they’re the same basic truck commercially available. At the very least, it makes maintenance and spare-parts-supplies easier to handle.