I don’t think its disproportionate. Frankly I don’t think we need a whole lot of folks majoring in 14th century Mongolian architecture but speaking I think there are a lot fo families that preswsure their kids to go to college without recognizing that just going to college is only important if you learn something there.
Well, would you at least agree that college should be available to anyone who would be able to fully take advantage of a college education regardless of their ability to pay?
I believe that Germany has free college for all IF you can pass the entrance exam. Then there is free master’s degrees for all IF you can get into a state funded master’s program. Then tehre are free professional degrees and Phds for all IF you can get into THOSE programs.
Sure you end up hurting some feelings when people realize taht they can’t be lawyers just by paying a boatload of money to some barely accredited law school and you tell them its because they’re not smart enough or hard working enough but I prefer that to telling the really bright kid who wants to be a lawyer that he can’t because he’s got to go pick fruit.
My experience is with magisters and doctors in law from germany. They generally paid less for their education than i paid for my school books and they were invariably well trained and knew their shit (and half my shit)
Random thought. On graduation of high school, everyone takes a comprehensive exam which suggests one education track or another for them, including both academia and the trades. Whatever the result of the test is, that student gets a free ride through their education if they choose to go that route. If not, they can choose a different course of education, but they have to pay standard tuition.
I don’t know. Too Communist?
If you read the thread, you might notice that that’s exactly whom we are talking about. Nobody is talking about taking away anyone’s opportunity. That’s irrelevant to the discussion.
What’s being pointed out is that many kids are pushed towards college by parents/teachers/society despite not especially wanting to go (often kids with no plan at all) and/or who don’t have the aptitude.
It doesn’t cost anyone $20,000 in student loans to try a job and find out they don’t like it. Nor does it cost the government (that is, you and me) thousands of dollars a semester in grants to let someone try a job and find out they don’t like it.
Grades, test scores, love of writing (even if you’re a math major, there’s a lot of writing to get through for at least two years!), skill at test taking, good people skills, being able to manage your study time, self-motivation, the ability to delay gratification, the ability to f-in’ graduate high school in a somewhat timely manner, and, last but not least, the actual desire to go to college, unpressured from family and newspaper articles.
Look, I have no problem encouraging anyone who wants to go and who has the ability to do the work to find a way. What I have a problem with is when people like my dear old mother make my son shrink at the dinner table because he doesn’t have an alma mater picked out at 17. No, dingbat, he’s not going to “waste his life” if he isn’t in college three months after he finishes high school…or ever, for that matter!
For anyone who is wondering why employers tend to prefer college graduates, this is a pretty good answer.
It is, but it shouldn’t be. People can and do have all of those qualities…and no desire to go to college. Yes, you need those things to succeed in college (or you should…these days you don’t, they’ll take your money and let you flounder along with C’s for breathing in and out in the right order), but you don’t have to have succeeded in college to have those things. Make sense?
I know, I know, a hiring manager can save time by interviewing only college graduates. It’s a winnowing process, I get it. But it’s a lazy and stupid one, especially as the college standards are lowered: heaploads of remedial and “Bridge” classes and tutoring labs and test taking courses, etc. are offered (at significant taxpayer expense), and you practically have to murder the Dean of Students in the faculty parking lot with 800 witnesses to get tossed out of college.
What does it matter? If the employer is demanding a college degree, he’s demanding a college degree. You either bring him a college degree and have a better shot at getting hired or you don’t and you go without a job.
Can’t fault people for striving to meet the demands that employers make. A person’s gotta compete just to eat.
When you’re looking for a job, “if” doesn’t put food on the table.
I’m not disagreeing with your sentiment here; I’m just saying that wishing things will change does not help the person who’s trying to get a job right now.
At some point we are going to escalate to such a ridiculously point that you’re going to see Wal Mart requiring PhD’s for greeters. This is the symptom of a greater problem: the employer’s market effect which will persist forever. It is impossible to stop an employer’s market without a huge drop in population: and the Baby Boomers growing old and dying do not represent enough of a drop to cover that. The other alternative, a huge job boom? You’ll never see that happen again in your or your kids’ lifetime. You can count on that.
Just try to get any sort of management job without a bachelor’s degree!
I know I’m an academic snob but from what I see, the issue with college is one of maturity. You have people who are making huge sacrifices (money, time, etc) to get a degree in class with others that are willing to get a degree as long as it doesn’t inconvienence them too much along with GenE (Entitlement) that think that they are owed a degree for the mere fact that they breathe. In this day and age, any idiot can go to college . . . and it shows.
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Bringing back the tariffs (which we had from 1776 up to the 1970’s) would bring back all those jobs and all those factories, and would bring about a huge job boom such as we previously experienced for 2 centuries over the 1800’s and most of the 1900’s.
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Secondly, a huge drop in population of the U.S.A. could easily be had simply by immediately ending “all” immigration and also by deporting all illegals.
The solutions are actually quite easy and simple, and have already been time tested over centuries of history.
I think we are talking about making not going to college the default instead of going to college being the default (for the middle class, anyhow.) The outliers, the kids who know exactly what they want to do, whether it is majoring in physics or becoming a mechanic, are not at issue. If by aptitude you mean the smarts to go on to college, I’m with you, though I don’t think that population has been the issue. A plan is something else again. How good is any 18-year-old’s plan? He or she is almost certainly immature, and doesn’t know a lot about the world or its possibilities. The opposite of encouraging is discouraging, and do you really want to discourage this kid from exploring?
In any case, a lot of parents and guidance counselors in my neighborhood, which is the high end of middle class, do not encourage kids to go to college especially. “Maturing” in the (cheap) local community college seems to be the default path. One teacher said that there was really no difference between Harvard and the local Cal State University. And some of my daughter’s friends, who followed this path, now regret it. None of the ones who went to a 4 year school regret that choice. There are definitely parents who drive their kids into college, but they seem to be in the minority around here, at least.
Writing takes practice and feedback, and it is an unfortunate fact that many high school teachers don’t give enough assignments or feedback to improve writing. My older daughter was so frustrated at this that she hid gobbledy gook in an English paper - the teacher never noticed it. Both my kids went to colleges where they stressed writing and improving writing, and it has paid off.
I don’t think we’ve discussed the difference between a good college and a college happy to take your money and give you a diploma if you manage not to drink yourself to death in four years. Parents (and students) who can’t tell the difference are going to suffer all the ill effects you mention. I will agree that if a kid can’t get into anything but a party school, he might be better off working for a few years. But there are plenty of colleges which don’t give their students a pass, including some big state ones.
Worked great in the late '20s, didn’t it?
If we had ended all immigration 30 years ago, there would be basically no Silicon Valley today. Not such a good idea.
or you could just kill them all - that is a time tested solution also. :rolleyes:
It certainly does. Having taught in the college system for the past 20 years, I can attest to that.
Yes, they emphatically are. A third of all college students in America require remedial work before they can take college-level classes. Probably another third would need them if what passes for “college-level classes” was not itself a joke at so many schools. 70-90% of those who do remedial work do not graduate, and IME it’s not because they are that much less hardworking.
Not at all. A lot of them are, but plenty of them are smart. motivated kids who know what they want, and are entirely ready to begin working on their career goals. How we separate them from the goofoffs is the issue.
:rolleyes: How about we send the kid up the Zambezi in an innertube? Yay, he’s exploring!
College is expensive. In many cases it is cripplingly, life-alteringly, expensive. There are all sorts of ways for an 18 year old to “explore,” (including inexpensive schools) that don’t have dramatic lifelong consequences. The average college graduate in 2010 will come out owing ~$25,000. That’s the average, and there are plenty who owe much, much more than that. That kind of debt can stick with them for decades, altering their entire life. $200 a month for 20 years is a hell of a price to pay for “exploring.”
Looking at my life, I see lots of choices that seemed right six months or a year after I made them, but don’t seem so good at age 40.
A student who wishes they had gone to a better (and more expensive) school will always have that option. It will be different from going there at 18, yes, but you can still learn and explore at 25 or 30 (or 80). The kid who goes to an expensive school and graduates with $50k in debt and a worthless BA is fucked.
Time tested to be completely ineffective.
The great thing about uneducated people is that they just seem to “know” everything without having to be constrained by things like “facts” or “historical precedent” or “academic scrutiny”.
[quote=Voyager
One teacher said that there was really no difference between Harvard and the local Cal State University.[/quote]
That teacher is an idiot.
It has nothing to do with “saving time” and it isn’t “lazy or stupid”. It has to do with valuing candidates who have demonstrated achievement over those who have not.
Are college standards being lowered? Employers know the difference between a good school and a mediocre one. They also know the difference between hard working, motivated, ambitious students and idiots living off their parents dime so they could have a 4 year party.
Any idiot can go to can go to college. But every idiot cannot graduate with a relevant degree from a highly respected institution.
Call me cynical, but it is in the government’s interest to keep 18 year olds out of the labor market for 4-5 years.
Of course, running up unpayable debt is going to be a big problem-I can see a future situation like the present mortgage meltdown.
The fact is, college tuition has been outrunning inflation for years-as government loans and aid goes up, the colleges raise tutions in lockstep-we now have a higher education structure which is unsustainable-and can only survive via more Federal subsidies.
A few years back, the German government realized this-they have the oldest students in the world-one guy actually retired as a student-he went for a BS, MS, PhD, post doc, fellowship-and wound up retiring without ever working!
For that matter, there is a huge difference between a 2.31 from a “party school” and a 4.0 (or 3.5) from that same school. Maybe a 4.0 from a party school won’t get you into a Wall Street firm, but it can be a boost for many companies and jobs.
i.e. there is a huge difference between a MBA from Harvard with a 4.0 and a 2.31 Associates in Sociology from Podunk State Community College. And that gap is filled with people who got good grades at OK schools, OK grades at great schools. The poor schools - yes, all you need to do is breathe in and out in the right order for a C…but you do need to know that material to do well.