Y’know, maybe kids these days need to also be advised yer supposed to drop acid before Lit class, so the stories can seem deep, Man…
not Comp. Sci.
And that’s fair enough. But did you ever hear the saying “All generalizations are wrong, including this one”? I didn’t deal in generalizations. I was quite specific, to wit:
and
It’s readily apparent that this doesn’t apply to you, and I in no way shape or form told you how you should live your life. Good for you, by the way. Better that you never have to learn the lessons that I have. I wish you the very best, and your hard work will pay off one day.
However, I stand by what I said in my OP.
Most of the instructors that I really enjoyed wanted questions to some degree. But my favorite said, "At times I will wait for you to ask a question, or I will try to provoke discussion. That’s all fine and well, but typically I will try to deal with questions quickly, and if you don’t understand them you can come to my office hours and I’ll explain them in full if it takes 2 hours for you to comprehend it.
As for class discussions, those will continue as long as I feel they should fully explore a point, arguing with me in class isn’t wrong, but don’t do it just to argue and don’t to it to attempt to waste our time, and even if you have valid arguments don’t be surprised if I shelved debate when I consider the matter fully explored.
If you do not, come to my office hours. I’ll be perfectly happy to debate even tangenitally related issues during that time if you so wish."
That was pretty much verbatim from the syllabus. The beauty of it was he pretty much said in writing that certain things were going to be quashed, and he did so at times.
I submit myself as Exhibit A, 10 years and all.
I guess I go to a different kind of school than you, because I really don’t encounter this attitude enough to generalize about it. But that’s nitpicking.
Thanks for explaining, and the only thing left that’s still ticking me off is the “work” in quotation marks comment. Again, that’s probably because I’m in a bad mood today. Sorry for blowing up at you.
It’s not necessarily the institution. It’s more likely a matter of me being able to identify it better since I’ve been away from it for so long. It sticks out like a sore thumb, no matter how subtle.
I agree, kids need perspective, but unfortunately, they’re just like we were, and the only thing that will teach them anything is time and experience. If you’re getting it right the first time, LaurAnge and NinjaChick, you’re ahead of the curve, and doing better than I did.
This quarter, my husband is teaching four sections of 101 and 201 Sociology. For him, this is a big load because of his other job. However, he has nearly gone nuts so far because he has received criticism recently for using too many “big words” in class (by a SMALL minority, he receives a 4.6/5.0 rating from the students on average). At one point, he decided to give a speech to all of his classes about how college is about expanding your knowledge base and if they do not understand a word they can a) get a dictionary and look it up, or b) ask him in class(or after), because it is his job to help them. However, he told them it is their responsibility to broaden their vocabulary. Look things up, study vocab words each night if you are lacking. In other words, he challenged them to be better students on their own. This, apparently, did not go over well with some.
Now, mind you, he does not use outlandish big words. Maybe he uses: conjunction, juxtaposition, ethnocentricism, assimilation etc… These are the words that they complain about, and when he made his speech, they complained that he was “treating them like they were stupid”. He did admit, however, that he has told quite a few students that they are just not college material. One of them admitted he could not read (the book, meaning too many big words) and the other wrote in a paper:
“I know you told us this is not an opinion paper, but that is all I know how to write. I cannot analyze things as you put it, I can only give my opinions. I don’t think you should expect students to write well in college. It is not my major”. Then, this was followed by a paper about how affirmative action was bad because he thought so and that it did not seem right, and his father said that one time he lost a job to a black guy and that ain’t right and then I think blacks just want to get something for nothing and that is not America and America is about getting ahead on your own stuff, not someone else’s etc…
He sometimes feels like he is Mr. Hand grading history papers and thinking that everyone must be on dope. Because, if it is not dope, then there are some really stupid people out there who actually believe college is for them.
As a disclaimer, my husband is not an elitist when it comes to college students. For non-traditional students or other types who struggle, he will take extra time. However, he requires an EFFORT on their part. Too many students think that they are entitled to a degree just because they paid for it.
One of his special memories is of a non-traditional student (40+ year old mother of 2). She was going back to school for a nursing degree after a divorce. She was struggling in her first quarter with him in 101 and she barely passed. Hubby spent a lot of time with her and she repeated his class to get a better grade, she only improved a little. Then, she took his 201 class and kept on working. After one assignment he read the best paper to the class (Hubby usually chooses to read the best essay or paper, but he grades by covering the name so he has no bias). He read the paper, and told the class that this was superior writing, analysis and effort and informed them that they should all emulate this. Then, he said the name and the woman who had struggled stood up. She was crying and she later told him that throughout her life, people have told her she was slow, stupid and unable to make it. To her, that was one of the greatest moments of her life. She eventually graduated and still stops by to to see him.
I guess my point is that some students expect too much, some are brats, some are jerks, but a professor must seek out the diamond in the rough and enouraging students to ask questions is the first step.
Why, though? People always say, “You’re paying such-and-such amount for every hour you spend in class.” But when it comes down to it, you’re paying for the degree. The degree is largely what is going to get you hired. My friend is majoring in Aerospace Engineering. She goes to maybe 50% of her classes each week. She gets amazing grades, and is in the honors program. Going to class is wasting her time, so why should she go? She’s paying to get her degree, and there’s no question that she’s going to graduate with honors.
I had a course with a guy who was the exact inverse of that. Except for the “annoying jerk” part, unfortunetly. The class was something like “Introduction to Literary Theory.” This guy was way, way past the “introduction to” part. He absolutely knew his shit, was very smart, asked (apparently) good, insightful questions, and dominated every class discussion. Except that he was always talking about shit that we weren’t learning in that class. Every day, the class ended up being a conversation between him and the professor, with the rest of us sitting there looking at our syllabus trying to figure out if we were going to get in trouble for never having heard of this Derrida guy. I don’t know if he was just extremely well read on his own, or had taken the advanced coruses somewhere else and was slumming or what. Whichever, it was very annoying. I didn’t get much out of that class because most of the discussions went right over my head.
Your last paragraph is sort of my point, in a way. There are lots of students who take their educations seriously. There are lots of students who also treat it as a four-year vacation on their parents’ tab, and spend their time drinking and generally being idiots. Some people grow out of that; many don’t.
The same thing can be said about ‘20-somethings nowadays’, or ‘middle-aged folk nowadays,’ or any other age group. Some people take things seriously, some are content to be irritants and dick around. But you never hear that; it’s always those darn kids and their loud music and the fact that they’re causing society to crumble into hell*.
As I said before, we don’t judge older generations by the ‘bad apples’, and there are just as many. Do the same for us?
*Also, you guys are the ones who raised us, so if you don’t like the way we act? Bite me.
Little background on my experience…my paramedic class was taught at a university, not a local community college. The university offers a 4 year BS program. However, it is also possible to enter the paramedic program to simply get your paramedic license and these two groups of students attend the same class at the same time. Generally speaking the BS students were younger and “professional students” who went straight to college from HS and were used to being students. The students who were in the program just to become paramedics were generally older and had been out of school for quite some time. (There is a big difference between these two populations of students, but that’s a topic for some other time)
The class was about 24 people in size, so discussion was encouraged. We had one or two people who followed the pervious discussed formula for annoying fellow students with stupid questions. Our lead instructor opened the second semester with this statement:
“There are some students in this class who are asking many questions to aid in their understanding of our material. While I do not wish to discourage anyone doing so, I’d like each of you to take a look around the class and note the expressions of your fellow classmates when asking questions…”
Damn–many of us damn near fell out of our seats…I’d like to think it discouraged some repetitive and redundant questions, but who knows.
On a separate note, I became an EMT instructor at a very young age, so I was teaching students frequently older than myself. I told my students that there are always welcome to ask questions, but if after the second explanation I’d cut them off and ask them to talk after class. I was fortunate enough to have small classes (6-10 students) so I also gave them my e-mail address and my phone number, encouraging them to contact me any time they needed help.
I was once told there are no stupid questions, only stupid people who ask questions 
Having just graduated from college, one of my biggest annoyances was the student who seemed to think he or she knew more than the professor.
One guy stands out in particular. It was an intro to thermodynamics class. The professor said at the beginning, and pretty much every time we got a new equation, that it was simplified, thatreal heat transfewr equationms are much more complex, and that they would be used in more advanced classes. Yet, every time, this kid would chime in:
Annoying Guy: Well, I see you simplified the derivitave of the heat loss of a spinning wheel in a bucket of ice water while being carried by a clown on a plane over the Pacific into a constant.
Good Professor: Yes, as I said, it’s easier this way, and for the work you will be doing in this class, it is quite sufficient.
AG: Oh, but I can still use the original equation if I want to, right?
GP: Actually, not really. That equation is too complex, and since you would have to guess at some of the variables that are not given, you would most likely arrive at the wrong answer.
AG: Well, I already did my homework that’s due next week using that equation, cause it’s the right way to do it. I don’t think you should simplify things.
GP: Well, good for you, I will take that into consideration wen I see your final answer. Moving on, we can see that the second law of thermodynamics states blah blah blah…
AG: Well, techniicalyl the econd law says that blah blah blah and blah blah
GP: That is something we discuss in advanced thermodynamics.
Aargh! OK, we get it, you read ahead/already know this. We are not impressed! If you already know it, we would prefer you not come to class so we can get more actual class time. Obviously, you don’t need to be there to learn the material. And no, you do not know more than the professor (at least in this field.)
Aww, aren’t you special. Want a cookie?
As stated before in this thread, this thread is a rant about some students; Airman Doors was very careful to qualify his rant and not label all young students. Is this a particular peeve of yours that you are having a hard time letting go of?
I think institution does figure largely into this, Doors. Depending on the academic thrust of the school you attend, the demographic which it draws from, and the reputation that it carries, I think students’ attitudes towards their education can generally fall heavily on one side or the other of the scale.
My campus, for example, has approximately 18,000 FTE and is the epitome of a “Commuter Campus” (we’re surrounded by cows and fields on all sides). Most of my fellow students work full time or at least part time (I think the last official statistic released was 80%), and many are parents. Everybody always has their own shit to deal with outside of class, so those I’ve been around seem to be pretty well on the ball to be living their regular lives and taking the time to drive all the way down here and earn a degree. In fact, nothing fun ever happens around here because everyone goes straight home or to work after class, so there’s less distractions from studying.
But take a look at a school that resides in a college town, or perhaps a private school where you can’t just get by on financial aid and your part time job at the video store. Yeah, I’m painting with a huuuge brush and talking about those schools whose population is mostly made up of students whose mommy and daddy are footing the bill. I’m also talking about “Party Schools” where the entire campus ethos is to fuck around all the time and pray you still pass. Students at those campuses are likely to have a different attitude towards work and responsibility (since they may not be responsible for their own livelihood), and those beliefs will most certainly carry over into the classroom. I wouldn’t call it apathy, but it’s certainly a different flavor than the guy who’s only able to attend class because he worked 80 hour weeks to pay for it.
And while I’m painting with this huuuge brush, I think the same applies to different disciplines, and daytime vs. night time classes. Some disciplines necessarily require more work and study and vigor in their pursuit. And there’s some that don’t – I’m an English Lit major, and I think it’s fun, not study, to read different works of literature and then write papers discussing them! Also, has anyone here ever had predominately day classes, and then taken a few night classes? Anyone else notice the difference in attitudes between the two groups? Most of the night class people are there because they have full time jobs in the day, and again – they seem to take their education far more seriously, because rather than going home after work to relax with family or have decent dinner, they’re in class working hard towards a degree. (They also seem to include more of the “older” students who are eager to share their life experiences, but I enjoy hearing from these, as long as they’re not taking away from class).
NinjaChick, I didn’t get that Doors was pitting people like you and me (I worked three part time jobs 80 hours/week and took 20 units a quarter my first few years, as I had no external help and have been largely supporting myself since I was 14). Like me, I believe that you are willing to do anything it takes to earn your degree and get the best possible experience out of your education that you are working so hard for. Therefore, I hardly believe that you could be one of those dickwad slackers that Doors is talking about, sitting in the back row and chatting/sleeping through the whole fucking class.
Wow. How original.
College (well, university) kid here.
Some people–like me, I certainly hope–have that perspective, or benefit from it. It’s good to listen to you, to hear what you’re saying, to know that I’m extremely lucky for what I have.
Some take it all for granted and won’t listen no matter what.
Not all kids, but some.
No, they really don’t need perspective. There’s no reason that an 18 year-old living out of the house for the first time in his life needs perspective at all.
He needs to be having a good time while he’s living in a self-contained, sheltered, kid-run world with 20,000 other kids. Perspective is exactly what he doesn’t need.
They’re getting their bills paid, their rent paid, their bathroom cleaned, and a lot of them doing exactly what we’d all like to do in that situation. . .drink all the time and do as little work as possible. There’s plenty of time to get perspective when they get out of college.
Sorry, if your 18-22 year old period didn’t include such luxury, but don’t go taking it out on the ones who are fortunate enough.
Also, I know your OP was kind of picking on one kid specifically, but you’re now surrounded by a ton of kids just like him. He’s going to be in all your classes the whole time you’re there. I hope you’re just ranting to get it off your chest, because if you really let that crap bother you, you’re done for.
Well, it’s not the ultimate proof of competency, but for now, it’s the only thing we have. Seriously.
And some degrees (without naming names) don’t even really imply compentency, more like “this guy just showed up at college for four years.”
Wow, someone else posted what I did. Terrific. I hadn’t read the whole thread before I posted. Now shove off.