I don’t think this is likely to change any time soon. Broad distribution requirements are a standard in American undergraduate education.
Don’t want to hijack too much, but I just thought I’d chime in here and add that another major difference is that in Canada we tend to use the word ‘college’ when we’re referring to what they generally call ‘community college’ in the US, and ‘university’ for any school that offers a degree. In other words, in Canada you go to college to get a 1 or 2 year (or sometimes 6 month) diploma or certificate, and university to get a 3 or 4 year Bachelors degree (and then a Masters and/or PhD if you so desire).
Also, I think the only time I ever really come across the term ‘frosh’ or is during ‘frosh week’ that most universities host in their first week back to welcome new students. I agree that I don’t often hear my fellow Canadians using the other three terms in any similar way to the Americans.
At least, those have been my experiences in Ontario. It could be completely different in other provinces!
This is an important point. Elementary/intermediate/middle/junior high/senior high designations are arbitrary and can change yearly. The number of students is a very important factor.
I got a three-year technology diploma (not degree) at Sheridan College in the 1980s.
At the time, the “community colleges” in Ontario were officially known as Colleges of Applied Arts and Technology. There was a sharp distinction between colleges and universities. Only universities had four-year programs, postgraduate programs, or research. Colleges were more about practical training, and offered two and three-year programs directly tied to the requirements of the labour force. And they also oiffered a ridiculous variety of part-time and evening courses, many of which were not tied to any diploma or certificate. They still do. Plus, they were a lot cheaper than university.
Some colleges have been evolving towards university status; Sheridan is now called the “Sheridan College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning” and offers four-year degree courses. I expect that within ten years it will officially become a university.
Ryerson University in Toronto followed a similar route. It was a Polytechnic Institute for a long time, and was perceived as being junior to the universities in Toronto. Then it was officially made into a university by an act of parliament, and now conducts itself in that way, massive building program and alumni donation drive and all.
And then there’s OCA, the Ontario College of Art. It becane the Ontario College of Art and Design, was awarded university degree-granting powers in 2002, and is now OCAD University.
That’s my experience too. We were frosh in the first few weeks at university as well.
The school I went to grade 7 and 8 in was called a Senior Public school and had only those two grades. I found out later that it’s been rearranged and is now a regular K-8 public school.
The first thing to remember is that states–and even individual school districts–in the U.S. have a fairly high degree of autonomy. The second is that we are highly inconsistent in terminology.
For the most part, middle school and junior high school refer to the same place. Although some posters have drawn a pretty fine distinction between junior college (2-year programs issuing associate degrees), college (4-year programs issuing bachelor’s degrees), and university (graduate programs issuing masters and doctorates), we don’t necessarily use that terminology on a day-to-day basis. Point out a rule and I’ll point out a counterexample.
No. Most states use 16, but each can set its own rules. In Montana, for example, you can get a license at 15. If you’re a farm kid with no other way of getting to school, they’ll issue them even lower. I don’t know the current bottom limit, but I know of at least one person here who got his first license at age 13. The ranch & farm kids often drive trucks, ATVs, and tractors on the ranch much younger than that.
This can vary not only from state to state, but from school district to school district and even from year to year. When I went to school in Colorado, it was K-6/7-9/10-12. When my oldest kids were going to school in California, it was K-5/6-8/9-12. The rural schools here in Montana don’t necessarily draw a line between elementary and middle school. K-7 or K-8 schools are pretty common.
That was when I was there, as well.
In order to get into the School of Business (which you usually entered after your sophomore year, after spending two years being technically “pre-business” in the College of Letters and Sciences), there were business-type requirements (2 semesters of accounting, 2 semesters of economics, a semester of statistics, etc.), but there were also “breadth” requirements (2 semesters of English or literature, a semester of Political Science, a semester of Philosophy, a semester of a science with a lab, etc.) Once you got into the School of Business, your only required classes were business classes (which varied depending on your specialization), but you also had a number of elective credits (which worked out to 3 or 4 credit-hours per semester, IIRC)…that’s when I was taking fencing, astronomy, etc.
My memory is that it was the Engineering majors who really had very little in the way of electives, or classes outside of math, science, and engineering. They typically had to fill their freshman year with pre-requisite classes and “weeder classes” (such as Organic Chemistry, which caused many Engineering aspirants to turn to Psychology), and had to get a minimum GPA in their freshman year (which varied by specialty) to actually be admitted to the Engineering school. From what I remember, engineering majors were required to take fairly few (if any) “breadth” courses, and had very few, if any, “elective credits” – in fact, most of the Engineering specialties had so many required classes that students in that school had to take “more than full load” class loads just to get out in 4 years.
Then there’s the University of Maryland University College, (yes, really: http://www.umuc.edu/index.shtml ) just in case anybody is not yet confused enough.
Would someone please explain “forms” (i.e. sixth form as mentioned above) and “Levels” (i.e. My uncle took his “A” Levels) what does that mean?
And the whole “Public School” versus “Private school” thing in the UK.
Generally, in the US:
Age 5-11 = Grades Kindergarten - 5th or 6th = “Elementary” or “Primary” school
Age 12-13 = Grades 6th or 7th - 8th = "Middle or “Intermediate” school
Age 14-17 = Grades 9-12 = “High” School (Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior years)
Age 18-22 = 4 years of College “Bachelors or Undergrad degree.” (also, Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior years)
Age 18-20 = 2 years Community college. “Associates Degree”. This is an alternative to the first two years at a full four-year college. Usually based on poor grades in High School, or sometimes just a cost-saving measure. In most cases these folks are planning to go on and get the full four-year degree elsewhere.
Age 22-? = “Grad School”. Full-on University work. 2 years for a Master’s degree, and perhaps two or more to go on to a Doctorate. I think Law School and Med school are each three years, followed by Studying for the Bar and Internship respectively.
I’d appreciate an explanation of the British system too. Also, where do OWLS fit in?
Heh. And if nobody minds the hijack, the Japanese system is as follows:
1-6 = Elementary (Shou-gakkou) 小学校
7-9 = Junior High School / Middle School (Chuu-gakkou) 中学校
10-12 = High School (Koukou) 高校
When I was in school, in New York City, junior high (7 - 9) was tracked. They had two types of SP (Special Progress) programs - one in which you skipped 8th grade and did junior high in 2 years, and one in which you got an enriched program 7-9. Elementary school grades and IQ seemed to play a role in who got in. This naturally mapped into honors classes in high school.
Distinction between US junior high and middle schools:
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Grades: JH is usually 7-9 or 7-8. Middle schools are 6-7 or 6-8.
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Organization: JH classes are grouped by subject departments, similar to (senior) high schools: E.g., Science Dept., Math Dept., English Dept., etc.
MS are grouped by teams: 6 grade teams, with a teacher for Science, Math, English, Social Studies; same for 7th and 8th. MS also have Gifted and Talented (GT) classes for each grade level, whose students usually go on to Pre-Advanced Placement (AP) and AP classes in high school.
When many US school districts switched to the middle school model, the junior high schools became middle schools. This took the crowding strain off of elementary (K-6) schools, but then transferred it to the high schools (now 9-12).
As has been stated before, the grouping of K-12 students in particular school buildings is fluid and changes regularly based on the practical needs of any particular school system in any particular year. These are not institutional categories.
I have seen lots of different versions of school
Where I went to school:
Kindergarten
Elementary (1 -3)
Intermediate (4-6)
Junior High (7-8)
High School (9-12)
Other school districts had:
Elementary (k-8)
High School (9-12)
Or
Elementary (K-5)
Junior High (6-8)
High School (9-12)
Or
Elementary (K-6)
Junior High (7-9)
High School (10-12)
The odd grades seem to be 6th and 9th, which may be placed in differnent groups to suit the school district
I noticed on “Leave It To Beaver,” Beaver when to Grant Elementary School from 1st grade through 8th grade
On “the Brady Bunch” it seems as if Greg and Marcia started High School in grade 10. It’s kind of implied but not stated exactly that way.
You make this seem like some kind of conveyor belt! I’m sure you know that you don’t have to be 18-20 years old to go to Community College, and you don’t have to go to Community College when you’re 18-20 years old, either. Same with undergraduate degrees, etc.
I don’t think it’s arbitrary at all. Schools with graduate programs and that do research–with some exceptions as described above–indicate that by the term “university.” In some states, an institution of higher leaning must satisfy certain requirements to call itself a university.
Practically speaking, yes, most people in the U.S. will refer to their postsecondary education as “college” regardless of where they go, but the language retains both terms because of the need for semantic distinctions in certain contexts.
It’s not “some exceptions.” It’s enough exceptions such that there is really no generalization that is helpful to a person who has no prior information about a particular educational institution.
I think it’s generally helpful for someone with no idea to say, “If it’s called a ‘university,’ it probably has a graduate program.” I have to say, though, I don’t know exactly how many don’t (compared to those that do). Probably less than a tenth, I think. Even the University of Phoenix has “graduate” degrees.
In Victoria we have prep 1 to grade 6 is primary school, Kinder is preschool.
Years 7 to 12 is called Secondary College [used to be high school]
years 11 & 12 are called VCE but still part of the Secondary College.
After that you have tertiary:
Universities for degrees
TAFE for diplomas etc
Hm, then what would you call specialized post-graduate schools, like medical school or business school?
Again, as I said earlier in the thread, this is far from a universal standard. Each state, and often each individual school district, can determine which grades are junior high/middle school, which name is used, what class grouping is used, and everything else.
What you said may be true for the particular city you live in, but it sure isn’t a general rule for the U.S. – and definitely doesn’t apply to the school districts I’ve lived in.
There are different kinds of associate’s degrees. An “Associate of Arts” (AA) or “Associate of Science” (AS) is designed as a transfer degree for students going on to a 4 yr college. An “Associate of Applied Science” (AAS) or “Associate of Occupation Studies” (AOS) is a terminal vocational degree; it’s not indended for transfers. An AS can also due double duty as a terminal and transfer degree. For example an Associate of Science in Nursing qualifies one (after a licencing exam) to become a Registered Nurse. It can also be used to transfer into a Bachelor of Science in Nursing degree.
“Community college” and “junior college” used to be interchangable (junior college predates community), but nowdays “junior college” is usually reserved for private institutions and community for public ones. Private junior colleges are becoming much rarer and most are in the process of becoming 4 yr schools (& have dropped junior from their names). There are also still some public junior colleges left that retain the name for tradition’s sake.
Many 2-year schools are just called “_____ College”, especially in California. I briefly attended a private JC in Pennsylvania that had dropped the junior from it’s name as part of a long term plan to become a 4 year school. It also had 2 dorms, but I didn’t live in them. Most 2 CCs are commuter schools with no dorms. This is changing and rural CCs frequently do have housing.
I was in kindergarden while our district’s middle school was being built. By the 1st grade the 6th graders had been packed off to the MS and the 7th and 8 graders moved out of the high school. Which must have been odd for the latter since they’d just finished 7th grade at the HS, gone to MS for one year, and then back to HS.
Our middle school was adjacent to the high school and 2 enclosed walkways connecting them. Other than that they were seperate buildings complete with their own gyms and cafeterias (the the MS didn’t have it’s own auditorium). The original plan would’ve also have them sharing a pool, but the district opted for a clock tower instead. As a result there’s a big empty courtyard between the gyms that both sets of lockerrooms open out on.
Building the MS next to the HS was a pretty common arrangment in the region. It saves on physical plant and transportation costs. The next district over was a single town and had a K-6 elementary school and a 7-12 high school on the same campus (& they shared a pool).
A K-8 school used to be called a “grammar school” which in Commonwealth English refers to a type of secondary school. Dad went to one of those, the building later found new life as a district administrative HQ. Parochial (Roman Catholic) schools are still set up that way. Every parish used to have one of those and every diocese had two high schools (one for boys, one for girls). There are alot fewer parochial schools now and they’re mostly coed.
Private schools are often called “_____ Academy” or “______ Preparatory School” (which in this case means an HS aimed strongly at preparing students for college). Really expensive private schools have names like “_____ (Country) Day School”. They can be secular or religious. Some private schools (especially current or former girls’ schools) are called “_____ Seminary”, but have no religious affiliation.
This is a holdover from when women’s schools were first established in the 19th century. Many called themselves seminaries and focused on preparing women for the only social acceptable occupation for a lady, teaching. They mixed what we would call secondary and collegiate education. Some became women’s colleges, some became boarding schools. Many are now coed.
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Hm, then what would you call specialized post-graduate schools, like medical school or business school?
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They aren’t specialized post-graduate schools in most of the world. Students can enter directly from secondary school and have names like “Faculty of Medicine” or “Faculty of Law” and are always part of a larger university.