Colorado teacher Jay Bennish suspended after anti-Bush/anti-capitalism rant

[Stephe96]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Stalin had a word for that type of activist, I think :). Nevertheless, I think you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of teachers who get removed from teaching don’t have students organize and participate in a walkout to protest, especially when they’re loathsome teachers who stifle dissent.

Daniel

I think you’ll find that when students have any opportunity to skip out of class for any reason, they’ll take it.

[EEMan]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Again, did you follow my previous link?

Yeah that is where I started to look for the standards for economics, history, civics, and social studies

Here’s the bit I quoted and highlighted before:

As students in grades 9-12 extend their knowledge, what they know and are able to do includes
• comparing and contrasting the characteristics and distribution of economic systems;

Characteristics and distribution… the ‘what is it’ and ‘where is it’… the history, civics, economics, and social studies courses seem a much better place to cover the ‘is it fair’ ‘where did it come from’ etc…

But then again this is completely ignoring the additional commentary he was providing…

I told you before that this was just a start; may I assume that, prior to criticizing him, you didn’t dig further? From the sixth standard:

As students in grades 9-12 extend their knowledge, what they know and are able to do includes
• evaluating a contemporary issue using geography knowledge, skills, and perspectives; and
• comparing and contrasting how different viewpoints influence the development of policies designed to use and manage Earth’s resources.

Again… I would argue these are more about the ‘what’ and ‘where’, and less about the ‘why’ and ‘if’…

and again, I got MY information directly from your previous posts (backtracking to the other standards)

It may not fall under what you understand to be covered by geography, but that’s something you need to take up with the state of Colorado. Before you do so, however, you might want to look into what professional geographers say about it.

I’m arguing that it is NOT covered by what CO would like… though that is subjective… and again speaking ONLY about the comments on economics here… though the rest of his comments fell even further from these standards (IMHO)…

Have you actually seen that happening in reverse, or are you condemning leftists for doing this in your imagination?

Daniel

LOL, yeah … i’ve never seen a ‘leftist’ use that flavor of strawman before

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Stephe96

I think you’ll find that when students have any opportunity to skip out of class for any reason, they’ll take it.

I think you’ll find that you’re wrong. Can you link me to examples of high school students who “stage a ‘walkout’ for reasons totally unconnected to the issue at hand”? I’ve never heard of that happening. Sure, students skip, but they don’t call it a walkout and they don’t organize it and tie it to a specific event and claim that it’ll effect change.

Teachers get fired, suspended, etc. all the time. Students very rarely organize protests of it.

EEMan, I’m not sure what to say to you. It seems completely clear to me that riffing on the advantages and disadvantages of economic systems is vital to teaching about them to meet the fifth and sixth standards, and completely clear that encouraging students to think critically about them is vital to their understanding them. At this point, I’m not clear on whether you disagree with me that he’s supported by CO standards, or whether you disagree with the standards.

What disadvantages are there to getting students to think critically about economic systems as part of their learning to “compar[e] and contrast…how different viewpoints influence the development of policies designed to use and manage Earth’s resources”?

Danile

[John_Mace]

@Hentor the Barbarian

I went and grabbed a link to a description of [urlhttp://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm]Kohlberg’s moral reasoning, but upon composing this, I notice that you specified that putting other people’s needs “above” your own.

As a result, I’m not sure that this will satisfy you. However, there is no appeal to religious beliefs within Kohlberg’s system. It is also a descriptive model regarding the nature of moral reasoning shown by individuals. It may thus not be convincing for you, but does describe the reasoning that many people use to justify valuing other people’s needs at least equally to your own. (Note that I grabbed one of the first reasonable descriptions of Kohlberg’s moral reasoning that I came across via Google, just to give some description. Better, more comprehensive discussions do exist.) I apologize if this is ultimately not responsive to your request.

I don’t dispute that people are generally sympathetic to other people’s needs. And I think it’s reasonable to postulate that it’s inherent in human nature to do so. But I think we help others in the group because we are social animals, and that we do so because it’s the best way to enssure our own survival. I know that can look like circular reasoning, but I have a hard time believing that we just like to help random people because there is some objectively determinable goodness in doing so.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@John Mace

I don’t dispute that people are generally sympathetic to other people’s needs.

While this is an interesting discussion and I’m not trying to shut it off, do you think that what happens with this teacher ought to be predicated on the strength of the opinion that he puts forth? Personally, I do not.

Daniel

[John_Mace]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

While this is an interesting discussion and I’m not trying to shut it off, do you think that what happens with this teacher ought to be predicated on the strength of the opinion that he puts forth? Personally, I do not.

Daniel

I said earlier in the thread that I don’t think we have enough info to make that determination. I’d want to hear what the teacher has to say for himself. I do have a problem with teachers who insist on inserting their own opinions into their teaching materials, regardless of what those opinions are. A teacher shouldn’t be an advocate for any one point of view, at least not during regular classroom hours. I’m not sure that was happening in this case. And if it was happening, it’s not clear whether this was a common occurance or a one-off thing.

OTOH, I don’t have a problem with state approves curricula which put a postive spin on American principles. This country is a capitalist, democratic country and I don’t expect us to teach our students that democracy is just one of many equally good systems of government or that capitalism is just one of many equally good economic systems.

[Lochdale]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Stalin had a word for that type of activist, I think :). Nevertheless, I think you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of teachers who get removed from teaching don’t have students organize and participate in a walkout to protest, especially when they’re loathsome teachers who stifle dissent.

Daniel

Perhaps a number of these students are sympathetic with his political positions?

Put another way, a walk-out in no way exonerates the teacher. Further, while a geography class may involve some discussions on economic systems shouldn’t such discussion be a fairly small part of the class? It appears that this teacher makes it a focus of the class.

Again, I simply don’t think that his polemic was appropriate. Moreover, a google search suggests that he’s been in trouble for this before.

http://www.frontpagemag.org/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21517

A conservative site but scroll down to see that there have been issues with this teacher before.

I’m starting to share Bricker’s concern that most of the support here is based on the content of the polemic rather than the rights and wrongs of bringing ones personal opinions into a classroom.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Lochdale

Perhaps a number of these students are sympathetic with his political positions?

So what if they are? I’ve had teachers whose politics I agreed with and who I’d not fight for, and others with reprehensible politics who I would fight for. My point is not that numbers by themselves make right: my point is that a significant number of students seem to think that he’s worth fighting for, and that’s indicative of a teacher who encourages thought.

Further, while a geography class may involve some discussions on economic systems shouldn’t such discussion be a fairly small part of the class? It appears that this teacher makes it a focus of the class.

And why should it be? Again, he’s encouraging critical thought. At a high school level, that’s one of the best things that a teacher can do. And again, I would have been appalled if the Neanderthal teacher in my own high school, the guy who was pro-slavery, had been suspended for his polemics: he was a fantastic teacher, in part because he pushed people, forced them to construct legitimate counters to his (often ridiculously awful) arguments.

I’m starting to share Bricker’s concern that most of the support here is based on the content of the polemic rather than the rights and wrongs of bringing ones personal opinions into a classroom.

In your dreams. Some of y’all ought to be writing novels: you’ve really got robust imaginations. Those imaginations aren’t serving you well in a place where you need facts, sadly.

Daniel

[Lochdale]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

So what if they are? I’ve had teachers whose politics I agreed with and who I’d not fight for, and others with reprehensible politics who I would fight for. My point is not that numbers by themselves make right: my point is that a significant number of students seem to think that he’s worth fighting for, and that’s indicative of a teacher who encourages thought.

No, it isn’t. It’s not dispositive of anything other than they might either agree with his politics or, being kids, just wanted a reason to act up.

And why should it be? Again, he’s encouraging critical thought. At a high school level, that’s one of the best things that a teacher can do. And again, I would have been appalled if the Neanderthal teacher in my own high school, the guy who was pro-slavery, had been suspended for his polemics: he was a fantastic teacher, in part because he pushed people, forced them to construct legitimate counters to his (often ridiculously awful) arguments.

Because life isn’t the “Dead Poets Society”. His job first and foremost is to teach geography, not “critical thinking”. Your notion of critical thinking is highly subjective. This was not a university setting where real cricital thinking is encouraged but a high school geography class.

I’m delighted you had such a good teacher but can you even fathom a situation where, in an effort to teach “critical thinking”, a teacher could overstep his or her mark and go from being a teacher to an aggressive bore?

[Saint_Cad]

@Evil Captor

All the crap I hear daily in which right wing stuff passes unnoticed and unexamined in the media and in personal life.

Ummmm . . . the question was specifically about right-wing diatribes by teachers in the classroom similar to those by the Bennish.

[Saint_Cad]

The important point being missed here is not whether his view are liberal or conservative. Even if this was a pedagogical approach to develop critical thinking skills (I don’t think it was. I think it was a liberal rant), is it appropriate to use in a high-school setting?

I raised this question in post #103 but no one has answered it yet:

[W]ould it be appropriate in high school to start a discussion about pre-Civil War US history saying, “Niggers are OK. Everyone should own one.” (an actual statement made by one of my ex-girlfriend’s teachers) to start a discussion of why it is wrong to own people as property?

If he truly wanted to garner debate, he would propose a topic (Capitalism is an Enemy of Human Rights) and let the students debate the issue.

Clearly a teacher needs boundaries in how they present material in schools. This is not college and the students are not adults. Just so you know that this is not Saint Cad the Conservative talking but rather Saint Cad the Teacher - I have objected to conservative teachers that have gone into anti-liberal rants in classes (admittedly few in California). The classroom needs to nurture student viewpoints and teach them to critically examine their own thoughts in an supportive and non-antagonistic environment. Bennish’s methods (independent of political views) were inappropriate in a high-school classroom and for that he deserves the suspension.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Lochdale

Because life isn’t the “Dead Poets Society”. His job first and foremost is to teach geography, not “critical thinking”. Your notion of critical thinking is highly subjective. This was not a university setting where real cricital thinking is encouraged but a high school geography class.

Staggeringly wrong. Most students can get through life just fine not knowing any more about geography than how to consult a globe when necessary. All students need to develop strong critical thinking skills.

Fortunately, Colorado agrees with me, not you, on this: read over their standards.

I’m delighted you had such a good teacher but can you even fathom a situation where, in an effort to teach “critical thinking”, a teacher could overstep his or her mark and go from being a teacher to an aggressive bore?

Sure: if the teacher did not encourage and permit debate, or if the teacher failed to treat students evenhandedly. If the teacher forced people to do unethical things (I know of a college professor who forced her students to commit an antisocial act as part of a class assignment – e.g., shoplift, flip someone off on the road, etc.), that’d be unethical. This teacher did not, by all accounts, do so.

Daniel

[Lochdale]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Staggeringly wrong. Most students can get through life just fine not knowing any more about geography than how to consult a globe when necessary. All students need to develop strong critical thinking skills.

Fortunately, Colorado agrees with me, not you, on this: read over their standards.

Teaching “critical thinking” is very subjective. Students do need to learn basic skills that would include geographical knowledge. Could a teacher not teach a student how to think critically by explaing to him how a compass works then perhaps asking said student to plot a course on a map? Wouldn’t that be teaching someone how to think critically? Combative politcal diatribes are not the only way to teach someone how to think critically.

Sure: if the teacher did not encourage and permit debate, or if the teacher failed to treat students evenhandedly. If the teacher forced people to do unethical things (I know of a college professor who forced her students to commit an antisocial act as part of a class assignment – e.g., shoplift, flip someone off on the road, etc.), that’d be unethical. This teacher did not, by all accounts, do so.

This were I think you are fundamentally mistaken. It appears that this has been a problem for this teacher. That he has used his position to force his opinions onto others. Moreover, per the link I posted, he has been censured for this kind of behaviour before.

Lastly, it can be very intimidating for a 15 year old to disagree with a teacher. Someone who is older than him and who is in a position of authority. It’s all very well to be glib and say they should have just argued back but it’s a damn sight tougher when you are in a small class and subject to a polemic.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Lochdale, check out Bloom’s Taxonomy. The sort of critical thinking I’m talking about occurs in the final type of learning, evaluation. Calling this need “subjective” is irrelevant: any discussion of what schools ought to teach is necessarily subjective.

You say I’m fundamentally mistaken, but you don’t offer evidence to show that I’m mistaken. I work with high school kids on a pretty regular basis; I think you’re vastly overestimating their timidity. The challenge isn’t to get them to disagree with you: the challenge is to get them to engage with you at all. If they’re engaging with you, the chances are very high that they’r edisagreeing with you.

Daniel

[Lochdale]

There are numerous ways to teach ‘critical thinking’ but it is still a very subjective area. He could have just of easily thought then how to think critically by use of exercise that, you know, involve a knowledge of geography. So it is subjective and there are other ways and means to go about teaching it.

I’ve listened to the tape a number of times and this teacher was not trying to engage his students. He was lecturing them which is fine but it destroys the notion that he was someone trying to teach them to think critically. Moreover, he seemed to spend a disproportion amount of time on such “teaching” when there was a significant amount of other materials that should have been covered.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Lochdale

There are numerous ways to teach ‘critical thinking’ but it is still a very subjective area. He could have just of easily thought then how to think critically by use of exercise that, you know, involve a knowledge of geography. So it is subjective and there are other ways and means to go about teaching it.

Yes, there are other ways. That doesn’t mean this way is wrong. And he was teaching them using a knowledge of geography, using the standards of his boss.

I’ve listened to the tape a number of times and this teacher was not trying to engage his students. He was lecturing them which is fine but it destroys the notion that he was someone trying to teach them to think critically. Moreover, he seemed to spend a disproportion amount of time on such “teaching” when there was a significant amount of other materials that should have been covered.

You’re drawing too many conclusions based on one twenty-minute tape; frankly, the fact that his students care so much about him speaks much more loudly to me. High school students don’t get worked up over the bad teachers.

Daniel

[Lochdale]

Actually I am not. It appears he has been sanctioned before for lecturing his students on politics. If we are to accept the view that he is using these polemics to teach critical thinking then it appears that this is his favoured method which suggests that he has not put the time or effort into other, less confrontational efforts.

[Saint_Cad]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Yes, there are other ways. That doesn’t mean this way is wrong. And he was teaching them using a knowledge of geography, using the standards of his boss.

You didn’t answer the question I posed in post #191 so I will ask you directly:
Is this method of instruction appropriate in a high-school classroom?
If so, what method of instruction would not be appropriate in a high-school classroom?

In addition, what classes have you had in implementing secondary school pedagogy?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@SaintCad

You didn’t answer the question I posed in post #191 so I will ask you directly:
Is this method of instruction appropriate in a high-school classroom?
If so, what method of instruction would not be appropriate in a high-school classroom?

Yes I did: reread the last paragraph of post 192.

In addition, what classes have you had in implementing secondary school pedagogy?

If you’re including 8th grade, I’ve had several classes that reach through this grade level. How about you?

Daniel

[Saint_Cad]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Yes I did: reread the last paragraph of post 192.

So it is appropriate to use inflammatory comments to incite a classroom debate? If you did read my post #191, then kindly answer the question - would the quote I gave be appropriate to introduce a discussion on racism/slavery in the ante-bellum South.

@Left Hand of Dorkness

If you’re including 8th grade, I’ve had several classes that reach through this grade level. How about you?

Considering I have a secondary and special ed credential, I had to go through two complete programs involving pedagogical approaches. I assumed you were a teacher based on your knowledge of Bloom’s Taxonomy but I think that you are making two errors in your evaluation.

1. There are many different instructional methods available that would not have the teacher participate in demagoguery. Student debates, projects on the effect of various systems (like capitalism and communism) on human rights, guest speakers representing both Israeli and Palestianian views with a student-led critique. Wouldn’t these be better instruction methods?

2. At what point do contraversial statements become inappropriate inflammatory comments? If you answer the question posed in #191, I would get some idea of where you think this line is. Or is your point that ANY statement in the classroom is appropriate so long as the teacher allows debate.