Columbine shootings - the aftermath - sue 'em

I felt exactly the same way, PLG. I might not have been popular, but at least I knew who I was. I had me, and that was all I really, truly needed.

I concur.

Whenever I hear people talk the way he did, PLG, I am reminded of all the right-wing elitists out there. Ptooie to conformism! Sure, life would be easier if everyone just toed the line. But think of everything we’d be missing.

My favourite man of all time, Leonardo DaVinci, was a total nonconformist. And I’m soooo sure that we’d all be better off if he’d toed the line and become a fish merchant. :rolleyes:

**

I must have missed something. I thought you said you didn’t participate in any extra curricular activities.

**

What the hell are you talking about? You don’t have to jump to some outrageous conclusion simply because I said teachers had limits. Sure, I think teachers should be involved in maintaining a decent environment for students.

**

Again, there’s no reason to jump to some outrageous conclusion. I happen to think a home life is more influencial when it comes to determining what kind of person you are.

Yeah, you are right, violence in schools just started. Hell, violence is really an invention of the mass media, right? Are you honestly saying that children haven’t reacted to their enviroment in violent ways before?

[/quote]
**

You really like to take a statement and jump to some odd place. Did you specifically see me mention school shootings or did I mention violence in general? Go ahead and check it out I’ll wait here for a minute. Back already? Great, yes, I did mention school shootings in specific.

Now that we’ve got that cleared would you care to speculate on the question at hand? How come there are school shootings today and there weren’t any 40 years ago?

**

Boo hoo. I know how it feels to have a friend kill himself and it isn’t pleasant. Most of us still thought the counelors were a joke.

**

If the teacher saw it happen, sure. But teachers don’t see everything do they?

Boo hoo, I feel your pain. You piss and moan about how miserable it was for you assuming that it was all fine and dandy for everyone else. I’ve got news for you. Even the popular kids had a lot of problems in high school. To be honest with you I had a harder time in middle school then I did in high school. After 8th grade things seemed to get easier for me academically and socially. But that’s just me. Somehow I wouldn’t doubt it if you went out of your way to look different in an effort to get some sort of attention. Any kind of attention.

There’s no reason for you to be rude. I never thought I’d say this to someone but grow up.
Marc

You guys are so noncomformist…just like all your other friends. You’re really no different then those you claim to dislike. You’re very quick to jump up on those who comform as if they’re bad people.

Marc

I apologize, I just have one more thing to say. This is a forum where we’re suppose to exchange ideas in a non hostile environment. Obviously this still a pretty hot button issue for you. That’s ok, I have my own issues that push my buttons.

But you didn’t attempt to address anything I said in my original post. I say teachers can’t see everything and you shoot back with “So they shouldn’t do anything?” If I make a statement you disagree with or dislike there are other ways to communicate. For example you could ask me why I think something might be true instead of saying it was ignorant and self absorbed. That seems to be a trait that those you dislike would have.

I’m not going to be hostile towards you in the future. But I would appreciate the same in return.

Marc

I’ll be more specific, no “important” e-c activities. Do you thing the majority of the teachers cared about Mock Trial? Do you think the principal cared about the “debate team” (It was me and 2 other people)?

I didn’t come to that conclusion from one single quote, it was the entire message in all of your posts. The overall feeling of it all. You seem to be convinced that teachers and principals should have minimul amount of responsibility for the students.

Home life has a major affect on the final outcome of a person, however, I know people who have the shittiest homelife imaginable, and truly blossomed in school, and went on to become productive citizens. Why did they do so well in school? Because they had the support of intelligent, mature adults…their teachers.

Yes, I saw the jocks get randomly beat up every day. It was almost amazing how these puny lil kids would just tear into the star football player!
You have had some problems, but you were not tormented by “the most popular kids in the school” and you were not sexually harassed by seniors because they could get away with it, and you were not physically assaulted by someone twice your size. All of this, on a daily basis.

Yes, I woke up every morning and said “YES! I want to get slapped around a bit by the linebackers!”
You wanna know what I wear? T-shirts, and black slacks, sometimes blue levis. What do the T-shirts say? Usually nothing, they are plain. What do I do to my hair? Nothing, it’s allowed to grow out, but it’s clean and brushed. How do I carry my books? In a non-descript black bookbag. Who do I talk to? Whoever talks to me first. Basically I go out of my way to avoid these people, and attract as lil attention to myself as possible.

I don’t hang out in cliques, and I do not have friends. I have acquaintences, who I get along with, but nobody I would call my friend. Like I said before, everything I do is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

And, BTW, I’m not bitter. Like Anthracite, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I may be poor and unpopular, but I’ll get farther in life than all of my tormenters. They are too busy playing football and getting laid to worry about what comes after HS.
Just one more year to go…

**

They do have minimal responsibility for the ubringing of students. If for no other reason it just isn’t practical for teachers to be raising all the children in their classes. I do think they have a responsibility to ensure that students are not harassed. But it is difficult for them to remove bad kids or even subject them to any serious punishment without mounds and mounds of paper work. At least it is like that in some school districts.

**

I don’t doubt it. I’ve seen some pretty outstanding teachers and to be honest I’ve seen very few bad ones.

**

I don’t know. Did you cop an attitude with anyone at school like you did with me?

**

Ironically maybe that’s one of the things that made you a target. That could have been the blood in the water the sharks smelled.

Well you sound bitter to me. But maybe you’re to young to be bitter.

Marc

Wow - I expected a lot of potential responses to my story, but did not expect an insinuation that the victims were themselves to blame. That’s really pretty mean, don’t you think?

I really find it impossible to believe that people go out of their way to be picked on, tormented, or tortured in High School. In fact, this attitude is exactly that taken by many of the bullies in the “In Crowd” at my school, who joked amonst themselves that “it’s their fault! I mean if he/she wasn’t such a spaz, I wouldn’t pick on them!”

After reading about the pain that I and others felt, you assume that we must not only have not avoided being a target, but in fact went out of our way to make ourselves targets? That’s actually not only mean, but very scary that someone thinks that is a likely scenario.

This not only assumes a lot, but is irrelevant to the issue of outcast kids being tortured by the popular in crowd.

Hey boys and girls, let’s have some fun. Let’s take the above two quotes and put them in a slightly different light, all through the miracle of paraphrasing. It might open a window of explaination as to the thought process involved in these statements:

“To every woman who was sexually harassed or raped. Did any of you do anything to make yourselves less of a target? I swear it seemed like some of the women that were harassed or raped went out of the way to make themselves targets.”

And:

“Somehow I wouldn’t doubt it if you went out of your way to look slutty in an effort to get some sort of attention. Any kind of attention.”

Unfair paraphrasing? Perhaps. But I don’t think it’s such a great leap from one attitude to another, yes?

I’m assuming from these words (not the paraphrased ones) and your other posts that you were not one of the outcast crowd in HS.

Leave me out of this one, sir. I desperately tried to conform. Who wouldn’t, if it offered an alternative to being friendless, outcast, and tormented? I’m not ashamed to say I tried to conform to blend in - but it’s no good once the “in crowd” has passed their judgement on you.

And then we have this statement, in response to pepperlandgirl’s comment about being slapped around a bit by the linebackers:

Wow - so when “copping an attitude”, one can only expect physical abuse as a result? UNPUNISHED physical abuse by popular students on outcast students? Are you saying that you would try something physical with someone who “cops an attitude” with you? If I “copped an attitude” with you, I wonder whatever would happen IRL?

And finally, we have this:

From pepperlandgirl:
**

From yourself:

Wait a minute here. Earlier, you asked if we “did anything to make ourselves less of a target”, and now you say the very act of making yourself less of a target is what makes you a target? So damned if you do, damned if you don’t? And then you just get hit again?

This also conflicts with what you say earlier, when you claimed that pepperlandgirl probably went out of her way to attract attention (thus assuring the “target” status), and yet now you say that when she says she attracted as little attention as possible, now THAT’s what made her a target? The “blood in the water”?

Wow, this sort of criminal jock mentality is either too deep to fathom, or completely fucked up and just plain sick, folks.

And with this final example, I can only conclude that not only do you have no real principles that are consistant on this matter, but you have no credibility whatsoever in your assertion that life was tough for you in school as well. Would it be unfair of me to picture you in a jacket covered with athletic letters?

But then, I don’t want to “cop an attitude” with you. That would likely just get me hit if we met IRL.

**

I don’t know why you’d find it so hard to believe. Why do people stay in relationships where the other party is verbally abusive? I’d find that to be rather impossible but, hey, it happens. I’m basing this idea off of a guy I knew in high school. Doesn’t mean everyone was like him of course.

I did not mean to imply that everyone who was picked on was at fault. I certainly did not mean to imply that about you or Pepperland. All I know is that after the first post I made someone decided to jump down my throat. All they had to ask was “Could you clarify that” or something to that affect.

**

I said that in response to her being angry and claiming she did nothing to provoke them. If she was as rude to them as she was to me them maybe she did provoke them for all I know. If you “copped an attitude” with me over a period of many months I might cold cock you, I admit it. The last school yard fight I ever got into was in eighth grade for that very reason. You push on anyone hard enough and long enough and there’s a chance that they’ll snap. Possibly hurting themselves or others.

**

Being meek makes you a target. If you don’t fight back people will continue to pick on you year after year. Bullies like people who won’t put up any kind of resistence. For some reason certain students seem to make better targets then others. And it has to be something more then them just being different.

**

It doesn’t conflict at all. The whole copping an attitude thing came from her being unpleasant. I assume if she’s unpleasant with me here then she’s probably like that with other people. Maybe that’s why nobody at school liked her.

**

And obviously I can conclude that you just can speak about this issue without getting angry. My high school years were pretty good. My worst years at school were 6th through 8th grade.

**

Must be nice to be able to see an athletic letter on someone and know that they’re a bad person. But yes I had a little wrestler on the right side of my jacket. It was a puny little team that nobody in the school really cared about. On the left side of my jacket I had a musical cleft for being in the orchestra. Again, a piss ant little organization that few people in the school cared about.

Marc

I question this assumption. I don’t think it’s true at all. In fact, I know for a fact that when my father attended high school in Brooklyn, NY in the early 60s, there were shootings, stabbings and rapes in his school.

I also recall hearing, around the time of the Columbine incident, that the worst school massacre ever occurred sometime in the 1930s.

As far as kids “making themselves targets,” I attended high school in a very small town, with about 500 kids in the entire school. It wasn’t a town with a lot of people moving in and out, so most of these kids had known each other since kindergarten.

I, on the other hand, moved into town in the 7th grade, having been an Army brat. By that time, there were well-established cliques of “smart kids,” “tough kids,” “popular kids,” etc., with very little mobility between them.

So, I was already an “outsider,” looked upon with suspicion. I was, at the time, small for my age. I suppose I could have magically made myself bigger to save myself from the “tough kids,” but I failed to do so. I also, at the time, had the last name of “Kaye,” so from nearly Day One, I was “Phil Gay,” a name I was hit with every day for the next six years. (FTR, I’m not gay, but that’s hardly the point. The first words Chuck Huggins ever said to me at Perry Junior High School were, “Aren’t you that Phil Gay kid?”)

I was also good at schoolwork. Strike two. My parents were divorced. Strike three.

So, I did my work, I socialized with my own small circle of friends (We played “Dungeons & Dragons.” Strike four.). I didn’t mess with people. Yeah, I can see how I made myself a target. What was I thinking? And did the administration of the school (not the teachers–I had some great teachers, some of whom I considered friends. Whoops–Strike five.) do anything about any of it? Heck, no. You see, Perry was the dominant football and basketball school in the Grand River Conference, and they weren’t about to jeapordize that. Perry didn’t even offer AP classes for students who could have benefitted, nor did they, unlike every other school in the county, offer varsity letters for academic achievement.

Upon graduation, I left Perry, and never looked back. The only times I’ve been back have been to visit my mother and my niece and nephews, and every landmark is a bad memory.

*Originally posted by MGibson *

Yes, as a matter of fact I can. (And yes, I know you typoed.)

Yes, it was unfair. But I was right, wasn’t I?

Anyways - so you were a wrestler. Wrestlers never bothered anyone at my school, because they ironically were in the same outcast group as myself! I remember at least 2 wrestlers getting the shit beat out of them by Senior football team members because they played in a “gay” sport, where guys hugged and grabbed each other. This one guy who was a wrestler (and also a perfect gentleman to boot, I really liked him) eventually quit and went to another school because every day he had these 2 jock brothers and their friends calling him a “gaywad”, “dick munch”, “homo” (the last of which which they wrote on his car with a rock), etc. Eventually, he was beat up at a party and had his collarbone broken being thrown down some apartment stairs. In court, the Jocks and others at the party stood together proudly with their parents as they denied knowing anything about it. Only 2 were convicted, and both got probation. And then 1 week later the wrestlers’ car windows were smashed, and a note left saying he was “Dead Meat”, all in vengeance for “narcing”.

So I have no emotional baggage against wrestlers at all. You guys took more abuse at my school than a lot of people. Because when kids get together in their little Jock Klans and Cheerleader Cults of Personality, and they are fully encouraged and pumped up by their sick and disgusting parents, the school, and the media and popular culture, they become a force like a miniature Hitler’s Germany in a High School. And most of us know what the end result is - a whole underclass of kids with solemn and broken dreams, sadness, and emotional scarring.

More to follow…

Amen sister.

Because of PLG’s and Anthracit’s posts, I’m going to speak for the popular kids. I was smart, friendly, and cute. (Not to say that Pepper and Anth weren’t/aren’t.) I was the basketball “star” for a while. Most the teachers liked me. The principal kept to his own a very rarely bothered me. I sat at the “cool” table in middle school before we were allowed off campus for lunch.

I was mean though. I picked on anyone who wasn’t “cool”. I got in physical fights with people. I started a fight with this guy in my science class because he stole a necklace from a friend of mine. My science teacher and the driver’s ed teacher watched the whole thing. My science teacher stopped it only after I threw the kid on the floor and kicked him. Twice. I was suspended for three days.

I would consider what I did to some of my classmates torture. And, in my case, it could have been stopped.

Now that I reflect back, I’m very ashamed of my behavior. And it cost me a lot. When I transfered to another school, my reputation as a bully followed me. The principal of my former school was, unfortunately, the sports director at my new school. If there was a problem in class, it was my fault. I spent more time in the principal’s office than I did in class. I was suspended for 5 days for throwing a pen in class at a student who’d thrown it at me first. (Childish, I know. It seemed justified at the time.) So really, I’ve experienced both sides. And neither is very fun.

Back to the OP: The website. The parents found this website in which one of the shooters described an intention of causing bodily harm to their entire school. They were right in giving this information to the police, I will grant them that. However, knowing that her son (or daughter) is having these thoughts, my mother would have had me committed, if only temporarily, to get a psychological evaluation, daily treatment, maybe some medication. Two months could have been enough for these kids to get out of their homi/suicidal state of mind. Two weeks may have even done the trick. Too bad we’ll never find out.

Upon receiving such information from said parent, the police could have informed the school. Now, this has been previously stated and I do agree with it only with this assumption. That the website was composed close to the date of the shooting or the website stated a specific date in which the mentioned crime was to be carried out. With that, school could have been closed that day and a few of the days surrounding that day. Without that, and without the parents doing anything to the boys, the school would have been able to do nothing but tell the kids that any one of them could be killed within a week or so. Providing security may not have stopped them either. They had a desire to kill. What makes everyone think that they wouldn’t have killed the guards too?

Some say that the threat on the website itself was not against any law. True. But you do not have to commit a crime to be punished (or otherwise dealt with) by your parents.