Columbus is down!

[rowrrbazzle]

@Chronos

This is not a logical follow-on to the removal of Confederate statues. It’s not a slippery slope; it’s the side of an entirely different mountain. The statues of Confederate soldiers were put up because they were oppressors, and dedicated to that oppression: They did nothing great other than championing the cause of oppression. But while Columbus was also an oppressor, that’s not the reason why we put up statues of him, and in fact most of the people who put up the statues were probably unaware of his oppression, and put them up to counter other oppression. His greatest deed, the one for which he is commemorated, was not inherently oppressive at all.

Was it not? It was the first step in everything that followed, wasn’t it? Why stop at him?

I think there’s a tiny weakness in your logic. You forgot that the people who put up the Confederate statues didn’t think they were inherently oppressive. Those of us who are white are now defined as being racist.

…I don’t think anyone thinks we should tear down all statues of everyone.

But group A will want to keep statues group B wants to destroy. Get a lot of groups with different preferences, guess what?

[octopus]

@Chronos

This is not a logical follow-on to the removal of Confederate statues. It’s not a slippery slope; it’s the side of an entirely different mountain. The statues of Confederate soldiers were put up because they were oppressors, and dedicated to that oppression: They did nothing great other than championing the cause of oppression. But while Columbus was also an oppressor, that’s not the reason why we put up statues of him, and in fact most of the people who put up the statues were probably unaware of his oppression, and put them up to counter other oppression. His greatest deed, the one for which he is commemorated, was not inherently oppressive at all.

Now, maybe Columbus’ oppression was sufficiently horrible that it should be taken to outweigh his greatness. That’s a discussion that should happen. But it should be discussion, not knee-jerk action, because I reckon anyone ever got a statue made of him was some sort of sumbitch or another, and I don’t think anyone thinks we should tear down all statues of everyone.

Well, Chronos, where in the history books has it ever occurred that mob mentality, once encouraged, could ever be controlled?

[octopus]

@Jasmine

I, for one, would like to see “Columbus Day” changed to “Indigenous Peoples Day”. Columbus basically kicked off centuries of imperial conquest around the globe that killed and enslaved indigenous people and stripped their lands of artifacts and resources. “Indigenous Peoples Day” would change the focus to remembering the millions who died or were suppressed when they were conquered.

“The sun never sets on the English empire!” We need to think about what that meant and the suffering it entailed.

There were empires at least a millennium before the English or Columbus. Chinese, Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Byzantine, Aztec, Mongol… imperialism isn’t a modern invention.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@rowrrbazzle

I think there’s a tiny weakness in your logic. You forgot that the people who put up the Confederate statues didn’t think they were inherently oppressive.

Yeah, they kind of did, if what Napier said earlier is true.

@Napier

Moreover, many Confederate statues went up as responses to civil rights advances, pretty clearly as threats to the people being advocated for in the advances. For example, many of the Confederate statues on or around school campuses were erected in responses to moves that desegregated schools. The speeches at their dedications often made this more explicit and clear.

[Kimstu]

@rowrrbazzle

You forgot that the people who put up the Confederate statues didn’t think they were inherently oppressive.

Wait, whaaaaat? Sure they did, if their own words in dedication speeches and the like are anything to go by:

In front of Charlotte’s common soldier monument, dedicated in 1910, Judge Armistead Burwell admonished his audience to “be reminded by this silent soldier … to protect from taint the Saxon blood that courses in your veins.” […]

At a 1909 dedication, Gov.William Kitchin extolled whites for their subjugation of black Americans, Central Americans, Asians, Africans and Native Americans.

They were quite candid about viewing these monuments as fundamentally linked with a tradition of white-supremacist oppression. Where they differ from us is just in their belief (in many cases quite sincere, if ultimately rooted in rank racist falsehoods) that such oppression was natural, right, divinely ordained, and ultimately in the best interests of everybody concerned, because the “inferior races” could not handle the responsibility of not being subjugated.

[Just_Passing_Through]

@Jasmine

I, for one, would like to see “Columbus Day” changed to “Indigenous Peoples Day”. Columbus basically kicked off centuries of imperial conquest around the globe that killed and enslaved indigenous people and stripped their lands of artifacts and resources. “Indigenous Peoples Day” would change the focus to remembering the millions who died or were suppressed when they were conquered.

“The sun never sets on the English empire!” We need to think about what that meant and the suffering it entailed.

Give them their own name day then, Columbus Day will always remain for me.

[Colibri]

@Just_Passing_Through

Give them their own name day then, Columbus Day will always remain for me.

Why?

[jackdavinci]

I’m fine with it. I agree that it’s kind of only vaguely adjacent in some ways to the original issue of police brutality. But as that ties in with BLM and gets into deeper and broader issues of systemic racism and colonialism, it becomes relevant.

Particularly, as long as the original issue doesn’t get distracted from, but instead gets built upon, I’m very much hoping the momentum builds up so much that it spills out into other long neglected issues.

[Mark_Finn]

@panache45

So our state capital will have to be renamed?

And South Carolina’s too, and a major river flowing through the NW states.

[Bill_Door]

@dalej42

Perhaps learn some history? The Disney film Pocahontas isn’t a documentary.

If we’re going to have Indigenous People Day, I think we should look to the Aztecs.

Learn some history? Anyone who thinks Columbus discovered America is the one who needs to learn some history.

[Sunspace]

While we’re at it, maybe we should rename British Columbia.

I vote for “Northern Cascadia”.

[puzzlegal]

@Darren_Garrison

Seems like a pretty logical escalation to me. Next up, George Washington and other presidents who were slave owners.

Naw. Columbus is primarily known for starting the process that took the Americas from the people who were already there, with a lot of murder and slavery to ease that process along. George Washington owned slaves, but that’s now what he’s known for. And everything that Washington is honored for could have been done without the slavery. Columbus without the European conquest of the “new world” would be just another minor explorer whose name kids confuse in history class and quickly forget.

This seems like a fine time to take down his statues.

@thorny_locust

Different mountains, maybe; but part of the same continent.

The USA committed two great original sins as part of its beginnings; both of them predating the country’s existence as a nation, but both of them affirmed at the beginning of the nation and continuing long after that. One of those sins was slavery. The other was the attempted extermination of the pre-existing cultures, culturally and often in the form of killing their members. Neither of these was inherent in European discovery of the continent – which had happened before; and it’s even possible to imagine the settlement of significant numbers of Europeans without either of these happening. However, the United States of America, as it actually came to exist, was based on both of those original sins; and would have been – and would be – considerably different if they hadn’t been committed.

And those sins were both rooted in the same idea: that only the culture and the bodies of white Europeans really mattered.

Columbus’ discovery of the continent / nearby islands was an accident. He wasn’t looking for what’s now called the Americas. He was looking for Asia; he had the size of the planet entirely wrong. The nation celebrates, not his fantastic ability to discover places or his fantastic navigation skills, but the fact that he got lost.

Now it’s true that most of the people who put up the statues and started Columbus Day, and even quite a few of the people defending the statues and the celebration, knew very little about Columbus, and that much of what they thought they knew was wrong. They were taught in school, as I was, that Columbus discovered America on purpose; that he was a genius who understood that the world was round when nobody else did. And they were not taught in school, as I was not, anything whatsoever about what he and those under his command did to the people they encountered.

In the 1950’s, and for that matter for most of the 20th century and before, for most people accurate information wasn’t readily available; nor, from what most people were taught, did there seem any reason to go try to hunt it up. That isn’t true now, for the great majority of people in the country.

I don’t think people who wanted to celebrate Columbus in 1920, or 1950, or even 1980 should be considered to blame, in the same sort of way that people who erected statues in the 20th century to Confederate generals can be considered to blame. But I also don’t think it’s really a different underlying issue.

This. All of this.

I don’t blame the people who put up those statues. I don’t blame me for not realizing just how horrible Columbus was when I was a school child. But now I know better. Tear 'em down. Put up a statue of, I dunno, how about Sojourner Truth instead.

@kenobi_65

That said (and as I imagine you know, being in Chicago), Columbus Day has, at least in some areas, like here, become a de facto “Italian-American Heritage Day,” in the same way that St. Patrick’s Day has become the same for Irish-Americans.

Yeah, that’s too bad. And I don’t want to steal the Italian-American’s day. Maybe we could broaden it and celebrate “Immigrants’ Day” a week after “Indigenous People’s Day” or something. After all, a lot of the immigrants, heck, most of them, came peacefully, took a spot at the bottom of society, and worked their way up. I do note that most of the immigrant ethnic groups here don’t get their own day. Or heck, if Italian American’s want to pick a day and celebrate Italian-American Heritage Day, I say, “go for it”. But we can do that without celebrating Columbus.

[smiling_bandit]

I have some big reservations about the accuracy of the Awful Columbus narrative. The source of a lot of the accusations against him seem to be questionable. I would not automatically believe people because they say a historical figure is rotten, especially given that the individual in question makes a very convenient target and he’s being saddled with a number of claims that turn him into a kind of meta-figure for a host of evils.

[Ulfreida]

@rowrrbazzle

Was it not? It was the first step in everything that followed, wasn’t it? Why stop at him?

I think there’s a tiny weakness in your logic. You forgot that the people who put up the Confederate statues didn’t think they were inherently oppressive. Those of us who are white are now defined as being racist.But group A will want to keep statues group B wants to destroy. Get a lot of groups with different preferences, guess what?

Actually white people are not being defined as racists. Racists are being defined as racists. Small difference. There’s overlap.

[Ulfreida]

Columbus Day is in fact celebrated as Indigenous People’s Day already in some locales. A lot more than I thought, in fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Peoples%27_Day#Observing_locations

[Colibri]

@smiling_bandit

I have some big reservations about the accuracy of the Awful Columbus narrative. The source of a lot of the accusations against him seem to be questionable. I would not automatically believe people because they say a historical figure is rotten, especially given that the individual in question makes a very convenient target and he’s being saddled with a number of claims that turn him into a kind of meta-figure for a host of evils.

Do you actually know what the historical record indicates? There’s no real controversy that Columbus personally instituted the slave trade in the Americas, despite the fact that the Spanish monarchy had prohibited it. Here’s a post I wrote previously on the subject.

@Colibri

However, there’s no question that Columbus himself established the trade in Indian slaves to Europe, the effective slavery of the native population in Hispaniola, and the system of tribute in gold that he so hypocritically condemns Boabadilla for.

From Admiral of the Ocean Sea (published in 1942, so long before the era of political correctness), one of most authoritative biographies of Columbus, by Samuel Elliot Morrison, who for the most part was an admirer of Columbus (p. 486):

Columbus had suggested instituting a slave trade for Caribs, the enemies of the Tainos. When Ferdinand and Isabela told him not to do so, Columbus proceeded to enslave the Tainos themselves. contravening their orders:

Quote:
Far from being discouraged by this hint that the King and Queen did not look kindly on an American slave trade, even with the specious promise of making Christians and productive workers out of the heathen cannibals, Columbus proceeded to establish a slave trade with the inhabitants of Hispaniola. And this, after he had declared time and time again that the Tainos were the kindest, most peaceful and generous people in the world, who wanted nothing but the chance to become good subjects and good Christians. Enslaving these people in their own islands was no new idea to Columbus; his first thought in 1492 was to clothe them and set them to work. But now he resorted to the monstrous expedient of sending hundreds of the wretched creatures overseas, to the slave market of Seville.

The following is a summary of pp. 491-493 in Admiral of the Ocean Sea:

In 1495, about 1500 captive Indians were brought to Isabela, the town Columbus had founded. About 500, the “best males and females,” were loaded on caravels for shipment to Spain. Columbus told the settlers they could help themselves to as many as they liked of those who were left. After this about 400 remained and were allowed to leave. Many of them were women with babies at the breast, who were so terrified of being captured again they abandoned their infants on the ground and fled. About two hundred of the captives sent to Spain died on the voyage, and were thrown into the sea. Most of the rest died after reaching Spain, so the trade turned out not to be very profitable.

Columbus then instituted a brutal system of tribute in gold or cotton which the Indians were obligated to pay. The tribute was almost impossible to pay even with brutal labor, so many Indians fled to the mountains where they died of starvation or took poison to end their misery. Morrison says “So the policy and acts of Columbus for which he alone was responsible began the depopulation of the terrestrial paradise* that was Hispaniola in 1492.”

*by Columbus’s own description.

---

The excuse is made that Columbus was just a man of his time, but the fact of the matter is that he was recognized as being unusually greedy, brutal, and heartless even by his contemporaries. He was also a hypocrite who piously trumpeted his Christian faith while promoting the most ghastly atrocities, as well as being a pathological liar (which even a cursory familiarity with his journals will confirm). You can quibble about exactly how old the women were who were enslaved and raped under the system Columbus initiated, but there can be little question that such rapes took place under Columbus’ rule and Columbus did nothing to discourage them.

Once again, I emphasize that these things were documented by Samuel Eliot Morrison, who on the most part was an admirer of Columbus.

[GIGObuster]

Yeah, and going to more modern times one would have to realize how peculiar was for the USA to lionize a colonizer and a slaver like Columbus after the US had fought for independence and then a civil war to get rid of slavery.

[Napier]

@Thudlow_Boink

Yeah, they kind of did, if what Napier said earlier is true.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/confederate-monuments-backlash-chart-trnd/index.html

[DPRK]

@GIGObuster

Yeah, and going to more modern times one would have to realize how peculiar was for the USA to lionize a colonizer and a slaver like Columbus after the US had fought for independence and then a civil war to get rid of slavery.

It is true that Columbus Day managed to gain some official approval and recognition by some US politicians, but that was as fucked up then as it seems now, for the reasons you and others mention. Now, obviously the people lobbying for it took care not to make it too much about Columbus (what with all the slavery and genocide), instead spinning it as celebrating the “discovery of America” or some such nonsense.

[Colibri]

@GIGObuster

Yeah, and going to more modern times one would have to realize how peculiar was for the USA to lionize a colonizer and a slaver like Columbus after the US had fought for independence and then a civil war to get rid of slavery.

However, the most spectacular monuments to Columbus are in the Dominican Republic, where Columbus personally began the policies that resulted in the virtual eradication of the native population. (Hispaniola was also the site of one of the only successful slave rebellions in history.)

Columbus visited Panama in 1502. I don’t recall any prominent monuments, but Panama’s second largest city, Colon, is named after him, and he is commemorated in the names of several islands or towns in the western Caribbean province of Bocas del Toro (Almirante, Isla Colon, Isla Cristobal), which he was the first to explore.