"comedians", some tips on the black "be" thing

Askia,

“Cultural ignorance?” You have no idea who I am, where I grew up, what color I am, or what anyone around me sounds like.

“Vernacular bigotry?” Not at all. In the same manner that I can, without prejudice, divine the hostile intent of someone pointing a gun at me, I can similarly determine the general intellectual disposition of someone speaking in ebonics. While it is mathematically consistent that this is not a one hundred percent accurate defense mechanism, it has a high enough rate of success that I’ll stick with it.
You are missing the point. pizzabrat is arguing that ebonics has rules to which its speakers must adhere, ignoring the fact that ebonics exists at all simply because SAE has rules to which the pioneers of ebonics did not.

pizzabrat and I are making the same argument. I’m simply drawing the line of acceptability at SAE, while pizzabrat draws it at ebonics. I’m sure there’s some Englishman out there who thinks of me the same way I think of pizzabrat simply because I don’t use “whilst.”
In defense of where I draw the line, I’m not embarassed to use SAE in any situation. But I’d certainly react badly to ebonics spoken anywhere business was conducted.
I’m culturally ignorant… i’m a vernacular bigot. Oh, my poor self-esteem! I’m going to seek damages as a victim of nontraditional asault!

Whew, thanks for picking up some of the slack, Askia.

White people don’t put “s” on the end of every word.

Ditto.

Likewise, some black people use nonstandard forms of the verb “to be”. Making a charicature of a black person who always uses a nonstandard form of the verb “to be” would be an exaggeration of something that actually happens. You are making a distinction without a difference.

First of all, if you are going to be pretentious enough to correct someone’s grammar, know what you’re talking about:


con·verse2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-vûrs, knvûrs)
adj.
Reversed, as in position, order, or action; contrary.

I don’t see any distinction other than your assertion that it’s funny when black comedians do it, but it’s not when white comedians do it.

blowero, if black comedians imitating white dialectical speech bothers you so much, why don’t you start a thread about it? I don’t think pizzabrat is under any obligation to Pit things that bother you or devote space in his rant to a different-but-related topic that you care about.

If these black comedians hurt your feelings so much then nothing’s stopping you from writing your own rant about it. I personally have never heard a black comedian do a white “redneck” imitation (although I’ve heard plenty of white Yankees do bad impressions of white Southerners) and I have my doubts as to whether you have either, but please feel free to prove me wrong in a thread of your own.

Give Comedy Central a whirl one Friday evening, assuming you get that channel.

I didn’t say they did. You obviously missed my point.

I don’t think you have a point. Looks like you just stormed in here to complain about how pizzabrat dared write a rant about bad imitations of black dialect without mentioning bad imitations of white dialect. Big deal. The man’s allowed to focus on a specific subject, especially since there was a recent thread in which posters were doing bad AAVE imitations.

No, there aren’t. That’s a myth.

That’s because Irish (the Gaelic language) has a present habitual tense in addition to the simple present tense. It would translate into English as “I do be” and many Irish people use this construction in English as well, as you’ve noted. And it’s not just a provincial thing; I hear it from Dubs as well.

No, it wasn’t about that either, but you are getting closer.

I can’t speak as a linguist or even as someone familiar with Ebonics. I will speak as someone who paid his bills for a few years by telling jokes to drunk people in dark rooms (which is, for most, a truly miserable existence, but that’s a rant I’ll never write).

I agree with the premise that if you’re going to do a parody of anything you should begin by understanding your subject, and that if you don’t you risk irritating or offending those who do. Worse, from the comic’s perspective, they won’t laugh, the club owner will hear silence, and the next booking becomes less likely. Playing with dialects carries two added risks: it inherently mocks whole groups of people (the butt of the joke becomes not only the guy you’re talking about but everybody who shares that manner of speaking) and they are very hard to do correctly. Further, if done incorrectly, the source of the humor is not some true and funny characteristic of language (which is dangerous enough) but a false stereotype, which is a close cousin to catering to bigotry for laughs (and by extension, money), which is in my view reprehensible. I never attempted any dialect on stage just because I judged the risks to be too great, my skills inadequate, for a paltry return (I’ve only known one dialect-based joke that I thought was funny).

That said, most comedians I’ve known are concerned mostly with two questions, in this order: 1) Did I get paid? and 2) Did they laugh? I knew very few comedians of the Will Cuppy school, who would do extensive research on a subject before joking about it. Many routines begin as a random ad lib thrown out one night that happened to get a laugh, and continued to grow until the point where an audience stopped laughing. Comedians aren’t theorists, they tend to be practical when it comes to their routines. If you see one get a five-minute shot on TV, you can bet that he’s using material that has done very well in the past.

Which is sort of the problem. There are plenty of venues where the audience is as ignorant as the comedian, and will laugh at a parody that would bore, irritate or offend them if they knew more. I played in front of lots of different kinds of people, from black urbanites to military personnel to offshore oil-rig workers to white bankers to schoolteachers to retirees to bikers, etc., etc. But I very rarely played to a single room that was particularly diverse. This may not speak well for society as a whole, but it’s easier by far for comedians. Trying to tell jokes to a truly diverse crowd would be like trying to lecture in seven languages at once.

What I’m getting at is that I think there are plenty of audiences for whom a random sprinkling of “be’s” is enough to evoke the concept of Ebonics so they can follow the joke. That comedian will learn, the first time s/he plays to a larger or more knowledgeable crowd, that it isn’t always enough. Unfortunately, the poor slob on stage sees the people in the room, not the people watching him on TV, so the feedback is imperfect.

King of Soup That’s one of the most refreshingly honest opinions I’ve head the pleasure to read in this foum. Thanks for sharing.

Happy Scrappy Hero Pup. Y’now – even the biggest, proudest, most pro-political Africentric activist can be astoundingly ignorant of ebonics, so I’m not judging you on any preconceived assumptions of ethnicity… just the stupidty of your assertions.

You’d be shocked, I think, to encounter the vast intellectual, pattern-recognizing, body-smart, spatial, and logical reasoning disparities that exist with MANY people who speak ebonics… many whom, as asthmatic ten-year olds, could outperform you, my little alluded “Clerks” fan. A little something called “multiple intelligence.” Not everything is mathematical and verbal.

You do make a muddleheaded point regarding standard acceptable speech, even if you’re hopelessly elitist about it. Your recognizing an Englishmen’s possible bigotry regarding the American dialect does not excuse your simliar and equally wrongheaded disdain for ebonics. There is no heirachy here, just points of deviation, rules regarding that deviation and language bigotry. I hope you change; you may not.

blowero. I didn’t correct your grammar, son. I corrected your phrasing. The simpler and clearer word choice remains “reverse.” It’s like using “mislike” when you mean “dislike.” You were trying too hard. P.S. I’m heartened you’ve found the online dictionary. Use it next time.

blowero. I now get why you keep coming back to this thread: your sense of humor is so narrow, unsophisticated and impoverished you can’t distinguish excellent mimmicry from crude mocking. Ah–!

pizzabrat. Well, y’know, I’m ready to get up and do my thing. Moving it, grooving it, y’know. Can I count it off? ONETWOTREEFO’!!!

<James Brown’s “Sex Machine” begins: Askia gets it on the good foot.>

Some black people use a nonstandard form of “be”. Making a charicature of a black person who uses a completely different nonstandard form of “be” while never, ever using the nonstandard form of “be” that actual people use isn’t an exaggeration - it’s a mistake on the comedian’s part. It’s like me hearing that people from some neighborhood in New York puts an “s” at the end of “you”, and then coming up with a character from that neighborhood who adds “t” to the beginning of every other word (but pronounces “you” without an added “s”) while calling that a comedic exaggeration.

Originally posted by Askia: **pizzabrat. ** You’re right, I know it, you know it, intellectually honest people know it.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by blowero:No I didn’t miss the point; you missed MY point. My point was, that your rant is silly and picayune. And as EVIDENCE of that, I pointed out that nobody has ever complained about the CONVERSE, i.e., black comedians making inaccurate imitations of white people.

Of course, this statement reveals more about blowero than about pizzabrat or his rant. This does not evidence a point as much as the true motivations/feeling behind his posts. He doesn’t really have a point - he just doesn’t like pizzabrat’s point. The following is a much bigger subject, and it is tiresome to have to point it out all the time, but: a purported across-the-board, “apples for apples” comparison of white vs. black in connection with day-to-day experiences, humor, innuendos, and most other things in life is not usually possible and is usually disingenuous, because the past history and present experience of these groups is anything but the same.

Furthermore, why is it that when a black person has a race-related issue they want to discuss, there will always be somebody to demand “But what about all the terrible things that have happened to WHITE PEOPLE!?!” If you don’t know what I’m talking about, do a search on “slavery”. Be prepared to let the rolleyes flow.

I’ve never heard of the DELTA EBONICS FLASH CARTOON.

Probably because it wasn’t mentioned in the OP and isn’t what is being pitted.
The OP (and even the title of the thread) is about comedians. And I still say it is a misguided rant. The mistakes are part of the comedy.

How funny is it to see a white guy use correct ebonics? “See? I’m proficient at using ebonics!” Audience laughs hysterically

On the other hand, a white guy who is bad at it gets laughs because of the spectacle of an obviously very white person trying and failing to be “hip.” I seem to remember Conan O’Brien ending a joke by saying “I am sooo white” or something like that. And people laughed because he had obviously been failing to seem “cool.” It’s playing off the stereotype of white guys as uncool, bad dancers, etc, not mocking black people.

Oh, I get it now. You wanted to hijack this thread for purely egotistical reasons! Boy, that was a fun riddle.

The King of Soup, thanks for the interesting post. I don’t have time to dig the thread up now, but fairly recently in Cafe Society there was a thread about parody that covered some similar ideas. The general consensus seemed to be that it’s impossible to do a good, enjoyable parody of something you truly don’t like or don’t understand. A parody done without a real understanding of what’s being parodied can still be funny to the right audience, but it isn’t going to have much kick. It’ll just be the same tired old jokes that anyone could make.

This kind of humor certainly exists. I think the whole weak, pasty white guy who tries and fails to be “gangsta hip” thing has become a rather tired comedy cliche, but if done properly that style of humor can be very funny.

However, humor of the simple, unironic “Black people talk funny! They talk just like this: [bad AAVE imitation]!” type also exists. I believe that’s what’s being Pitted here.

I take it you’ve never seen Billy Crystal’s uncanny impersonations of Sammy Davis, Jr. on Saturday Night Live or his tribute to Muhammad Ali at different points of his career. Or Ben Affleck’s dead-on mimmicry of Morgan Freeman and Denzel Washington on The Tonight Show that absolutely killed. Ever listen to Teena Marie sing “Square Biz” “I’m A Sucker for Your Love” or “Ooo La La La?”, ? Then there was Gordana Rashovich, who played Jadwiga on Whoopi Goldberg’s TV show two years ago. Sounded like my sister. Who sounded black when they shouted-out on their rap single: “Yo man – let’s get out of here… word to your mother?” No wonder Vanilla Ice’s Ice, Ice Baby was adopted by Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity when it first came out. These people have made black people laugh, scream, shout out, yell, and stare in amazement – the best reactions ANY comedian can pull who’s not out for quickie ignorant laughs.

Accurate mimmicry is appreciated… flattery = imitation. Not cheap imitation.

{Note- mistyped URL leading to nudity has been removed. Lynn}

NOTE: THE LINK IN THE ABOVE POST IS BROKEN AND LEADS TO A WEBSITE THAT IS NOT SAFE FOR WORK.

I know you didn’t intend that, Askia; I just wanted to give fair warning.

Huh. That didn’t happen when I previewed. I’ll go alert a Mod.