Commonly(and frustratingly) misunderstood plot points(spoilers, I guess)

[Nzinga_Seated]

Jesus christ picking out the splinters! I would love to pull a shaky gun on the next person I meet unwilling to accept that the AI robots were robots. Mash it against their temple and force them to admit it for once and for all.

[Yllaria]

@Peter_Morris

I mean the novelization of Last Crusade got it wrong. The end of the book went something like " And Indy and his father rode off together … into immortality. " . .

Sadly, “… into immortality” is also a metaphor for “went on to do great things that were talked about and admired for a long time.” I haven’t read the novelization, but the author could be using the phrase metaphorically and intending to imply that living a great mortal life is the preferred form of immortality. The heroes die, but their stories go on.

Apologies if I was whooshed.

[Mahaloth]

@Yllaria

Sadly, “… into immortality” is also a metaphor for “went on to do great things that were talked about and admired for a long time.” I haven’t read the novelization, but the author could be using the phrase metaphorically and intending to imply that living a great mortal life is the preferred form of immortality. The heroes die, but their stories go on.

No we’ll need a quote from it. Anyone own it?

[Mahaloth]

@Nzinga_Seated

Jesus christ picking out the splinters! I would love to pull a shaky gun on the next person I meet unwilling to accept that the AI robots were robots. Mash it against their temple and force them to admit it for once and for all.

It’s my whole point of the thread and I understand. Some plot points are not open to interpretation. They just “are what happened in the movie” we watched. Robots appeared at the end of A.I. and some can’t see it.

Open to interpretation would be…I guess the ending to Inception. I know the top begins to topple(vibrate), but I do agree that at least Christopher Nolan was, you know, trying to leave it open to interpretation. Spielberg in AI was NOT trying to leave it open. He just shouldn’t have signed off on alien-looking robots!

[Peter_Morris]

Okay, Bryan, just consider the following

SPOCK’S VOICE: Admiral, if we go by the book, like Lieutenant Saavik, hours could seem like days.

KIRK I read you, Captain. Let’s have it.

SPOCK’S VOICE: The situation is grave, Admiral. We won’t have main power for six daysat least. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed, but maybe we can restore that in two days. By the book, Admiral.

=============================

You do understand that the damage report was not accurate, right?
You actually understand that Spock had power back in 2 hours, not 2 days. You understood that

Spock said “Two days” in order to deceive Khan. Do you agree ?

They pretended the damage was severe, but it was really minor. Did you get that part?

Do we agree so far?

So, assuming we agree on the above, is it possible that Kirk’s cry was a further deception?

[Bryan_Ekers]

Incidentally, this thread reminded me of an earlier discussion of A.I. that got a tad acrimonious, though I honestly believe I had a few quite-clever suggestions on how the film could have been far better.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Peter_Morris

So, assuming we agree on the above, is it possible that Kirk’s cry was a further deception?

The damage wasn’t minor, the situation was still pretty touch-and-go. And, sure, yours is a possible interpretation, I just maintain it’s a wrong one. Why not another alternate “possible” interpretation, that none of the events in the movie were “real” and everything we see is taking place in an extended version of the Kobayashi Maru simulator. Is this possible? Sure, why not?

Alternate #2: Everything we see is an extended dream of Khan as he succumbs to the mind-bending effects of the Ceti eel that has crawled into his ear. Possible? Sure, why not?

[Peter_Morris]

Bryan please stop making up these ridiculous strawmen.

[Jilaad]

The KHAAAAAAN was not in anger/frustration for being marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet, buried alive.

The proof is by contradiction.

1. Suppose Kirk yells KHAAAAAAN in anger/frustration for being marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet, buried alive.
2. Kirk must have thought that he was being marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet, buried alive.
3. Spock had successfully communicated to Kirk that the repairs would take HOURS and not DAYS. This is thanks to Regulation 46A: If transmissions are being monitored during battle, no uncoded messages on an open channel. Kirk and Spock discuss this with each other after beaming back up and revealing the trick to Saavik. Kirk was in on it. “By the book! You, of all people”.
4. So Kirk did not think that he was being marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet, buried alive.
5. Therefore the KHAAAAAAN was not anger/frustration in response to being marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet, buried alive.

Granted, this does not say what the real reason for the KHAAAAAAN was. But if it’s not being marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet, buried alive… what is it?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Peter_Morris

Bryan please stop making up these ridiculous strawmen.

As far as I’m concerned, either of my suggested alternates is just as possible as yours, and all three are wrong.

[JohnT]

@Bosstone

Whoops, I also got it completely wrong. Like I said, I hadn’t read the book. I was just going off Wikipedia.

Edit: Except that same Wikipedia article says this:

Which is a problem with Wikipedia because that doesn’t happen - I know, because I just read the last 40 pages of the book.

Ellie is instructed by Kitz to remain silent, upon pain of professional and personal embarrassment/destruction, etc:

(Page 390):

Kitz: "Oh. After a little more debriefing you’ll be free to leave. I don’t think any of you will be foolish enough to tell this cock-and-bull storey on the outside. But just to be safe, we’re preparing some psychiatric dossiers on the five of you. Profiles. Low-key. You’ve always been a little rebellious, mad at the system - whatever system you grew up in… But nobody will believe your story. Nobody. If you behave yourselves, there’s no reason that the dossiers ever have to be released.

It’ll be clear that the Machine is still here. We’re having a few wire service photographers in to photograph it as soon as the roads will open… And the crew? The crew is naturally disappointed. Maybe a little disheartened. They don’t want to talk to the press just yet.

Don’t you think we’re being very reasonable, after spending two trillion dollars on that pile of shit? We could put you away for life, Arroway. But we’re letting you go free. You don’t even have to put up bail."

So, no going to the press. Further, in a conversation between Ellie and Kitz, Kitz says the following (page 408):

“You come back with a solid piece of evidence, something really convincing, and we’ll join you in making the announcement. We’ll say we asked you to keep the story quiet until we could be absolutely sure… If we announce the story now, though, there’ll be an initial wave of enthusiasm and then the skeptics will start carping. It’ll embarrass you and it’ll embarrass us. Much better to gather the evidence, if you can.”

…

But in return she must say nothing about what happened aboard the Machine.

Lastly, in a conversation between Palmer and Ellie, this exchange occurs (page 418):

“Forgive me, Eleanor, but don’t you think you’re being a mite too… indirect? You don’t belong to a silent order of Buddhist nuns. Why don’t you just tell your story?”

“Palmer, if I had hard evidence, I’d speak up. But if I don’t have any, people like Kitz will say that I’m lying. Or hallucinating.”

Again, nowhere in the book does she say to anybody “take me on faith.” To do so would violate the entire point of the novel.

[ExTank]

@PSXer

because Kirk had worked it out with Spock and knew he wasn’t really trapped. Why would he make a genuine yell of frustration if he had already worked it out?

Because sometimes there’s that mo’fo’ that just gets under your skin and pisses you right the fuck off.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I just rewatched the “Khan!” scene and William Shatner’s lip-curling, body-quivering delivery leaves me no doubt he’s conveying his character’s fury. I see no reason whatsoever to assume otherwise.

In fact, his posture from 0:11 to 0:14 suggests his quickly-improvised “plan” is to goad Khan into coming down to the planet, and I could buy that as a delaying tactic to give Enterprise a chance to recover within Spock’s wink-wink timeframe. The goading fails, Khan will not be baited, and Kirk gets understandably miffed.

[Peter_Morris]

And then about 30 seconds later after Khan hangs up the phone, he’s suddenly un-miffed and cheerily asking if there’s anything to eat.

Yeah, right.

[panamajack]

I don’t know if this link will work but it’s possible to search inside the Indiana Jones novelization, and that line doesn’t appear.

“Immortality” only shows up once, and not at the end - actually it looks to be at the part where the old knight explains why you only live forever if you stay inside the cave. “That is the boundary and the price of immortality”. So unless they screwed up elsewhere, it was explained just as well as in the movie.

The final line appears to be:
“This might have been his grandest adventure yet, but he was sure it wouldn’t be his last.”

Unless there’s another novelization out there.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Peter_Morris

And then about 30 seconds later after Khan hangs up the phone, he’s suddenly un-miffed and cheerily asking if there’s anything to eat.

Yeah, right.

Watch the scene more carefully. The action isn’t continuous; there is a break at 1:05 - 1:06 when the scene cuts from Khan’s face to Saavik on her communicator. Several minutes may have passed in that break, long enough for Kirk to calm down and Chekov to regain consciousness.

[Peter_Morris]

@panamajack

Unless there’s another novelization out there.

There appears to be at least two novelizations.

Oneis a ‘junior’ novel, by Ryder Wyndham. This is the one you linked.
The otheris a more adult one by Rob MacGreggor. I can’t find a preview of this.

Its possible I’m misremembering. It’s 20 years since I read it, anyway.

[Jilaad]

@Bryan_Ekers

I just rewatched the “Khan!” scene and William Shatner’s lip-curling, body-quivering delivery leaves me no doubt he’s conveying his character’s fury. I see no reason whatsoever to assume otherwise.

In fact, his posture from 0:11 to 0:14 suggests his quickly-improvised “plan” is to goad Khan into coming down to the planet, and I could buy that as a delaying tactic to give Enterprise a chance to recover within Spock’s wink-wink timeframe. The goading fails, Khan will not be baited, and Kirk gets understandably miffed.

The overacted delivery serves an in-universe purpose and a film making purpose.

In-universe, Khan has swallowed the “Enterprise is a crippled ship” bait and KHAAAAAAN is just Kirk setting the hook. He’s playing to Khan’s ego and sense of superiority by allowing him not only to believe that he’s won, but that he’s broken Kirk emotionally. KHAAAAAAN! Then cut to Khan’s “O” face. He knows how to manipulate Khan, which he does again later in the movie to goad him into entering the nebula.

From a film making perspective, it hides the trick that Kirk and Spock just pulled regarding the repair times and gets the audience thinking that they are in actual danger. Right before the KHAAAAAAN outburst, Spock was saying very unSpockian things like “If we went by the book, like Lt Saavik, hours would seem like days”. Since when does Spock use idioms like “by the book” and “hours would seem like days”, and since when does he refer to fellow officers in somewhat denigrating ways, especially after praising them earlier for the exact thing he’s denigrating them for now? He doesn’t, and it it seems weird that he’s doing it now. But then KHAAAAAAN! and it’s all forgotten. Kirk bamboozled us just like he bamboozled Khan. It makes the reveal so much sweeter.

I don’t think that Kirk had his outburst because his plan to lure Khan into the cave failed. A genuine outburst would be very out of character. When has Kirk ever reacted that strongly in anger? His plans fail all the time and he always plays it cool. I’m trying to think of angry outbursts in the films and TV series and I can’t recall any. But putting on a false front to manipulate his foe is very much in character, and something he does all the time.

[Bosstone]

@JohnT

Again, nowhere in the book does she say to anybody “take me on faith.” To do so would violate the entire point of the novel.

Interesting. Sounds like that part of the book synopsis was lifted from the movie’s.

[JohnT]

For the record, and I’m not getting dragged into this, I agree with Bryan. Y’all are over-analyzing the scene too much.