Communism: How would it work

Great Debates
1

I want to do a series of threads that talk about different political/economic systems and ask their adherents to describe how they would work…and their detractors to debate the replies or to come out with counter scenarios that they think would be more realistic. I’d like people to check the rhetoric and flowery language at the door…as well as citing this person’s opinion, or that person’s opinion. I want what YOU think the world would be like under the system under discussion…not what someone else thinks it would be like in a cite.

Ok, so, first up: Communism. Let’s say that Communism was world wide…every nation was ‘communist’ in one form or another, with no free market capitalist nations left in the world. How would the system work? What would it be like? I want the nuts and bolts here, as well as the big picture…how would national economy’s function? Would everyone have a job? What kinds of products would be available to the people? How would people innovate new products or ideas? What would people’s incentives be to do better? Would a global communism be different from the myriad failed communist states we’ve seen pass by in the last century? If so, why? Would communism become a hybrid like in China (who seems to be moving more towards a capitalist free market, with communist baggage still lying about)?

What I want is to ‘what if’ the scenario of global communism, where every state and nation is committed to communism in peace. What would such a world be like? As I said earlier I want YOUR words…not Lenin’s or Marx’s or anyone else’s. Please, keep the rhetoric to a minimum as well, and stay on topic…we are only discussion communism here, not socialism or free market capitalism. If this thread gets any kind of decent response I’ll do other threads on those other subjects later.

Thank in advance…hope this goes well.

-XT

2

Before we begin, would you care to define “communism” for purposes of this thread? The term has various meanings, not all of them involving Marxism or Leninism.

3

Define it any way you like BG. The same will be said in the follow on threads…define the political or economic system as YOU think, then extrapolate from there. If ‘communism’=‘Leninism’ or ‘Marxism’ (or hell, ‘Stalinism’ or ‘Maoist’ or whatever) then define it an then project that on your theoretical world. Myself I’d guess there would be different ‘brands’ of communism throughout the world IF communism ever became global.

Feel free to define it as you like.

-XT

4

My brother, human beings are selfish @#%@#%, as such, Communism, Socialism, et al. is impossible. Grow up, educate yourself a bit in the real world, mate, then work hard for “democracy,” it is the best that we’ll ever get.

BA

5

Nitpick: “Democracy” is a political system – the system of making decisions on public policy, and/or choosing decisionmaking leaders, through a voting process in which every voter has an equal voice – which is, in principle, compatible with several different kinds of economic systems.

6

Reguardless, I’m looking for a bit more detail on why communism wouldn’t work than ‘My brother, human beings are selfish @#%@#%, as such, Communism, Socialism, et al. is impossible. Grow up, educate yourself a bit in the real world, mate, then work hard for “democracy,” it is the best that we’ll ever get.’

WHY wouldn’t it work? WHAT would it be like under such a system? Its cool if you don’t think it would work (here’s a hint…I don’t think it would either)…but could you define WHY you don’t think it would work in a bit more detail?

What I’m really interested in are the few communists on this board who DO think it would work…I want to see their vision of what things would be like and how it would work.

Please, no more drive by’s. If you don’t have more to say on this then just lurk.

-XT

7

XT isn’t promoting communism. In fact, he’s one of the more ardent free marketers around here. In fact, the OP is set up so that all you have to do is know something about communism to contribute-- you don’t need to support or disagree with the system.

Far be it from me to be a spokesman for that system, XT, but doesn’t pure communism assume that once it’s implemented world-wdie, there would be no such things as countries or even governments anymore?

8

The Soviet, Chine, Cubist, North Viet, system mate? Which sucessful Communist/Socialist system are ye referrring to?

BA?

9

Correct. And capitalism does not imply democracy. Pinochet surely didn’t believe in democracy, yet did believe in free markets.

10

Well, I consider myself a non-Marxist democratic socialist. So if you consider “socialism” a different thing than “communism” and plan to start another thread on it, I’ll wait for that.

11

Exactly. I WANT alternative visions. If you think it would be a dark time for mankind, an Atlas Shrugged world, then by all means lets hear it.

Yes…and thats what I’d like to see in detail. IF communism were world wide, then the next step would be a move to no governments (in theory). How exactly would this transition be made? What would the world look like in the transition period? Afterwards? What pre-conditions (besides world wide communism) would need to be met to proceed to the next level. I know there are several communists on this board and I’d like their thoughts (as opposed to their retoric) about what the world would be like, how it would work, etc.

-XT

12

I do consider socialism different than communism…and had planned on doing a ‘what if the entire world went socialist…what would it be like’ thread in the future…if this thread gets anywhere. So far not so good. :slight_smile:

If you have any thoughts on what YOU, BG, think the world would be like if it went fully communist, then by all means share them. If you think that, having gone communist world wide they would be forced to back step to socialism, then tell it that way. Or wait for the next thread…if it ever happens.

-XT

13

What is this, dreams of Star Trek? Comrade, there have been libraries written on the pros and cons of Communism, Socialism, etc. in the past century, go read any of them and they will not substitute for real world experience. No matter how high minded a particular human may become, he/she will never begat an egalitarian society. Look around you.

BA

14

The two biggest problems with communism IMO are lack of incentives, and the sheer complexity of running an advanced economy. I would regard the latter as the biggest obstacle, as presumably an efficiently run communist economy would be able to set up sufficient price/income differentials to incentivise economic behavior whilst avoiding the problems free markets have with externalities, extreme income inequalities etc.

Personally, i believe that a free market based system is currently the least worst system of economic organisation. I also believe however that in the not too distant future, our information processing capabilites will have sufficiently advanced to allow a communist type economy to be run efficiently. I can envisage a system where a computer takes most of the decisions that are currently taken collectively by those participating in markets. The broad strategic decisions would be taken either by direct voting on each particular decision, or perhaps by elected representives.

This is probably not what you’re after though, as all this assumes something we don’t yet have IMO - sufficient computing power. I guess its more sci-fi than anything else. :slight_smile:

Are you planning on doing one about participatory economics? That could be an interesting thread…

15

IIRC, in a NG episode Pickard once mentioned that Earth had a “mixed economy”.

16

The only thing preventing Communism from working are human beings.

A society of emotionless Vulcans or selfless robots would probably make a decent go at it. But humans? Pfashaw!

17

Communism requires an economy in which economics of scale have effectively reduced the price of goods to zero. There are several impediments to that goal, chief among them declining returns on investment and an economic disincentive to increase productivity to that extent. Even if a company could grow food for practically nothing, they’d stop developing production capacity long before that happened to preserve profitable price levels.

It is conceivable that one day we will see either real communism or completely socialized markets in some areas. Food staples would be one example, they are already produced (at least in America) in volumes that challenge profitability. But I sincerely doubt we’ll ever see a truly communist market, there will always be luxury goods and goods that cannot be produced that cheaply.

18

Awhile back, when we had a couple of real life commies posting to threads about communism I asked that exact question, but never got an answer. I thought Marx (or Engles, or whoever) had postulated that a communist state would literally change human nature such that the system would work. I still don’t understand if I was misunderstanding that tenet or what.

19

Planet of the Shapes is on the right track. I myself am a believer in a democratic political system with a Communist free-market Libertarian economic system. Should I wait for your thread on Libertarianism?

With “my” vision of Communism (or Libertarianism), we would all be civil cervants. There would be no profit motive. Institutions (all of them being government institutions) would be judged on how well they achieve their mission (customer service, efficiency, innovation) not on how much profit they make.

The “democratic free market” part would mean that anybody who had an idea for some new service or product or line of research or whatever other endeavour, could ask for a vote on that subject, and if approved, would be free to set it up. E.g. anybody who thought the DMV (just a random example) were doing a bad job (poor customer service) of their mission, could force a vote to set up a competing, better DMV.

Critically, people should also somehow be able to vote against poorly performing institutions. My understanding is that this was in fact a critical part of original Marxism (“recall, recall, recall”, supposedly Marx said that too).

As I have written earlier, I come from a country where government works extremely well. So I can see with my own eyes that a government institution, done right, can always outperform and out-compete any commercial enterprise, the latter ultimately always being out to screw their customers, workers, laws, etc. And I am a small business owner myself so I know something about profits and workers and all that stuff.

Not sure if I should in fact call this Communism. Obviously, I think authoritarian central-planning forms of Communism are doomed to failure. As are visions based on unrealistic (or wrong) expectations of human nature, motives, and incentives. Let alone those based on nonsensical “class” distinctions.

20

Well,to ask how communism can work requires some kind of consensus on what kind of world we want to live in. Can communism work in relation to what? Poverty? Freedom? The utopian world predicted by the founders? The discussion presumes near universal agreement on the ultimate goals of an economic system. We’re certainly not there yet.

To answer some of the questions in the OP:

Would everyone have a job?
Pretty much, yeah.

Would there be homeless people? (my question)
No.

What kinds of products would be available to the people?
Those the bureaucrats in the government find should be produced, products people need, not necessarily what they want.

How would people innovate new products or ideas?
People, generally, wont. The government will take responsibility for innovations.

What would people’s incentives be to do better?
I can’t think of anything besides education and rising in the ranks of the party

Would a global communism be different from the myriad failed communist states we’ve seen pass by in the last century?
No idea.
In my view, the lack of incentives would be a problem in any society, but it’s not defined as a problem by communists. On the contrary, with equal ownership the theory is that everyone will feel responsibility to care for existing property. We know that incentives are necessary for economic growth, but wealth is not a goal in communism. It’s essentially a huge safety net where noone is poor or homeless, but also where noone is successful.

I cannot disagree more with XT that if communism were worldwide, then the next step would be a move to no governments (in theory). On the contrary, communism requires a central government. No government - no communism. World communism would be nothing different than the kind of communism that we see today on a small scale, with the noteabley exceptions of peace and outside influence. It would put food on the table of families, but it would deny the same families the freedom to purchase what they want, become what they want and do what they want because the greater good would always thrumph the desires of the individual. And then there’s this ugly thing called nationalities and group thinking that communism never understood.

I also disagree with Planet of the Shapes that information processing capabilites one day will advance to allow a communist type economy to be run efficiently. The problem with communism is not in the economic model, it’s in the human brain. Generally, I believe there is no utopia or “end world” we can reach by following a course of communism or capitalism or something else. All systems basically follow the path of life: birth, work, death. And then the planet will cease to exist.