Communism.

Well, I think the point several have made with the Nazi analogy is not really related to fiscal policy or to state ownership, but to legal and social philosophies, so Haider and Le Pen’s admittedly neo-socialist financial platforms are immaterial.

However, suggesting that they are skewed “a bit right on immigration” is like suggesting that Hitler “wasn’t fond of Jews”.

Haider and Le Pen’s stances on immigration, especially Le Pen’s, relative to the rest of the French polity, stop just short of “send them ALL home!”; and Haider shows a clear leaning toward other Fascist principles in the areas where he has less influence. I will grant that compared to the more ideologically driven recesses of the US Republican Party, they are not particularly “rightist”.

Actually, fascism did have socialist roots, of a kind. According to Fascism: A History, by Roger Eatwell (Penguin Books, 1996), both the Italian and German versions of fascism were, indeed, partly rooted in a desire for a revolutionary, egalitarian transformation of society similar to what the socialists had in mind. Partly. Fascism was a mixture of several elements, including social conservatism, statist authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, imperialism, and (mainly in the German variant) racism and anti-Semitism. But social radicalism was in that mix too.

In any case, what with being preoccupied with the war and everything, neither the Italian Fascist nor the German Nazi regime ever tried to implement a social revolution – but the idea was always there and some expected it would indeed happen after the war. Mussolini, who had begun his political career as a Communist, took it more seriously than Hitler. Hitler ultimately decided he needed the backing of the rich industrialists more than he needed anything else. As a result, the Sturmabteilung or Brownshirts – which was, among other things, the leftist, labor-union-based wing of the Nazi Party – was purged and decimated in the Night of Long Knives.

None of this reflects badly on socialism, even revolutionary socialism, as an idea. Bad people can sometimes grab onto good ideas, and use them for bad ends. George Orwell was on the money when he wrote that Hitler had adopted from socialism just those elements which could make his country successful in war. And don’t forget that Britain and the U.S. were forced to adopt a similar degree of “war socialism” to fight Hitler effectively.

Communism and fascism are also related via their shared roots in the work of 19th-century German philosopher G.W.F. Hegel. Hegel’s emphasis on the collective, abstract Volksgeist and nation-state, as well as his unfortunate attack on democracy and his characterization of history as a “slaughter-bench,” all proved attractive to later authoritarian movements.

After Hegel’s death, his followers split into left- and right-wing factions (fitting, given Hegel’s ideas on thesis and antithesis). The right-wingers, whose views were probably more in line with those of Hegel himself, were rabid nationalists who held that Hegelian perfection - “the end of history” - was to be found in the unified German nation-state. Their philosophies seem to have inspired later figures like Friedrich Nietzche and, ultimately, Adolph Hitler. The left-wingers, on the other hand, held that even Hegel’s cherished nation-state was full of contradictions and would itself be negated; likewise, they emphasized that history was the process by which freedom was ultimately brought to all mankind - including the urban proletariat, which Hegel had dismissed as being outside the proper Volksgeist. Karl Marx was a left-wing Hegelian.

True. And I noted the tendencies in my post. However, Fascism, having “roots” “of a kind” is a long way from the simplistic claim, based on wishful thinking, that Naziism was “socialist in nature.”

Although, in practice, I would say that the Nazis and the Communists of the USSR had a lot in common.

Indeed. This is further expounded upon in Hayek’s classic The Road to Serfdom.

Rational analysis is not based on what-ifs drawn from pie-in-the-sky dreams. Rational analysis is based on “How has it worked in all known implementations?” The rational analysis says that communism inevitably leads to tyranny and suffering. The rational analysis says that communism is bad. The irrational response is to dodge the issue and claim that every single real-world example of communism is not “really” communism.

Can you provide a cite that any communist country has adhered to these things? Theories with no application in reality are ultimately meaningless. Judge by the reality.

No, doesn’t make sense. Obesity is not seen as a great evil. But that doesn’t make it a great evil.

You reasoning is inherently very flawed.

Btw. Austria was a socialist country for 30 years until Feb. 2000. We lived were well, there was freedom of speech (more than now) and real democracy and we had (and still have) a health system which is worth it’s name.

France was socialist country for long time.

I could cite the UK, but the socialists in that country are not worth the name, IMO.

One thing I never see mentioned in these threads that I would like to bring up (just to add some other viewpoints)…

During the colonial period, most colonies did not operate under the capitalist system. Instead, they operated under a quasi-mercantilist system. I’ll just use India as an example here, but the situation applies to numerous colonies.

During the British rule in India, native small-scale farming operations were disrupted in favor of large-scale farms many times owned by absentee British landlords (the original collectivization). Under this system, local growers were forced to grow raw materials for shipment back to England. These materials were then made into manufactured goods for shipment back to India. The rules and regulations of the colony almost completely decimated native manufacturing which (a) could not compete with the industrialized British goods and (b) was not allowed to develop native industrialized manufacturing industries. As well, capital formation native to the colony was made extremely difficult because of the way banking regulations were set up (the exception being the princely states, which had varying degrees of local autonomy). Post WWI, there was some relaxation of the regulations to allow some industry, but the movement was not significant (I should also add that there were Indian practices existing which the British found useful to continue, such as tenant farming, which clearly impeded individual ability to compete successfully in a purely capitalist environment).

So, after independence, India found itself with a bizarre economy that was geared largely for growing export crops with little manufacturing. Add to this a largely impoverished population.

Now, the question is, how does one rectify such an economic imbalance as quickly as possible? Adopting a laissez-faire capitalist approach possibly could work, but with such striking imbalances, I’m really hard-pressed to believe that such an approach would have worked quickly enough to address some very pressing needs. Some combination of socialist/capitalist policies were clearly needed in this situation (although, IMO, India went too far to the socialist side).

Unfortunately, in many cases, using socialist policies to rectify these type of colonial injustices was often seen in the US as a prelude to communism, when it may not have been. This conflation of socialist policies with communist ideology on the part of the US is to my mind, a tragic error.

To blanketly demonize socialism, IMO, ignores the reality on the ground of post-colonial regimes.

I also wanted to add (just so it doesn’t seem like I’m British bashing) that India also had the political need to quickly adress the economic legacy of thousands of years of caste discrimination. Under this system, individuals were prevented from access to certain types of employment and education. Since these economic rules had been largely enforced through social constraints, I see no way that the government of India could have adressed the issue reasonably without ordering a massive rectification of the skewed employment situation (that is, a socialist solution).

Once again, IMO, a good example of when socialist policies were necessary to rectify historical injustice.

Posted by Muad’Dib:

Posted by BrainGlutton:

Posted by Dogface:

No, no, no, Dogface! Of course there have been a lot of regimes calling themselves “socialist” which have had very bad human-rights records. That is beside the point. Muad’Dib is asserting that socialist philosophy expressly rejects, on principle, the idea that individuals can have any rights that the state or collective is bound to respect. I have known a lot of socialists and I have never heard any of them defend such a position. I am perfectly justified in challenging Muad’Dib to back up this assertion; and it is the kind of claim that can only be backed up by citing socialist theorists.

What good is a political or economic theory that cannot be implemented? Name a single communist country that has been “true” to the virtuous theory and has not slid into despotism. How ought I judge the worthiness of a theory if its application is so universally miserable?

“Can you provide a cite for this in any of the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, or any other important theorist of socialism?”

Err, you do know that Lenin and Trotsky both wrote stuff advocating murder and terrorism, yes?

Could you point out some countries that are communist but are not totalitarian or some other form of despotism?

I’d like to study them.

If anticommunists are in error to conflate socialism with the ills of communism in practice, are not marxists and marx groupies likely to be as equally in error to conflate the situations wherein democratic socialism has worked with an idea that communism “could work”?

Communism is man’s exploiting of man. Capitalism is exactly the opposite.

:wink:

Seriously, cannot one be a socialist AND anti-communist at the same time? I know I am! As was Aleksander Kerensky.

Posted by Guinastasia:

Indeed. And what’s more, one can be a socialist and an anti-Marxist at the same time! I know I am! Marx did not invent socialism, and in my view the whole socialist enterprise would have been better off without the intellectual structure he invented for it.

I would say that Totalitarian countries are not Communist by definition.

From Webster’s Collegiate:

"Main Entry: com·mu·nism
Pronunciation: 'käm-y&-“ni-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French communisme, from commun common
Date: 1840
1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 : capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R. b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively”

Therefore, according to definition 2:a, Sovietism was indeed a form of Communism. Also note 2:b, which is an umbrella definition that would include most all Communist regimes.

Therefore, although not Communist purists, most “Communist” nations have actually been Communist, according to one definition or another.