Competing electability theories. (D side)

Who was he talking to at the time, and have they pressed charges?

I saw this polling nugget from 538. Post-NH-debate, for the first time, Sanders is edging out Biden in the electability polling question: respondents think Sanders has a 60% chance of beating Trump, compared to Biden’s 58% chance.

Granted, this is among folks likely to vote in the Democratic primary. It’d be incredibly interesting to see what the general public would say.

Yeah, I 100% know that some crazy shit is going to get thrown at Sanders in the general if he wins the primary. The wife-fraud investigation will come up (although that’ll be a tricky one, given the closure of the investigation without charges). The weird sex writings from the seventies or whenever, and the Soviet honeymoon, will also come up; and I suspect there’ll be another thing or two.

But this is where I think Sander’s essential hedgehogness may be to his benefit. He’s likely to address these charges both bluntly and shortly. Whatever else you can say about him, it’s inaccurate to call him insincere; and I think it’ll be hard to make manufactured scandals stick to him for this reason.

Yeah, Bernie will just brush that shit off and go back to talking about policy. It’s not guaranteed to work, but I think it has a better chance than doing the equivalent of running out and getting a DNA test to “disprove” the charges.

If it wasn’t so serious this would be funny.

Wisconsin has the 19th oldest state population. Michigan the 14th. Pennsylvania the 8th. Florida the 2nd. These are the likeliest swing states. And old people are pretty thoroughly convinced that socialism, not to mention the U.S.S.R., are scary entities.

It’s NOT that the old white people are swing voters who might go for the Democrats. It’s that old white Republicans might stay home if the Democratic candidate seems more or less in the mainstream American tradition.

Also, OP username/thread title combo!

Another excellent predictor of Presidential elections is simple 8-year alternation. (The only exceptions since 1952 are associated with the Reagan phenomenon.) These excellent predictors cannot both be absolute simultaneously!

But I stand by my charisma observation. Humphrey, Ford, Deukmejian?, Gore??, Kerry — Not much charisma. And if you really think Trump isn’t more “charismatic” than Hillary you really do need a new dictionary.

On another matter, upthread I see mention of "leftists who wouldn't vote for Biden."  In the other(!) thread I copy-pasted details of Biden's health plan.  If it's not leftish enough for all y'all, then ... *Hey bartender, bring me a lid of whatever the leftists are smoking!*

I find columns like this baffling.

Oh no! If Democrats don’t pay attention to what happened with Republicans in 2016, they too could end up nominating the popular populist instead of the traditional party candidate!

It’s like she stopped paying attention to what happened after Trump won the nomination. Democrats should be so lucky as to repeat Republicans’ 2016 path.

The primary process is completely different on the Republican side. Anyone using that as some lesson for the Dems can be mostly disregarded.

Am I crazy to think that the dems are wasting their time going after the dems? I would think that if DJT isn’t enough to get a dem out to vote in November, then they deserve to lose. I am kinda with Bill Maher on this one though, none of the dems seem to have a convincing plan to deal with whats left if they win, how to deal with DJT when he says that the election is rigged, how to deal with the court system, campaign finance stuff.

Maybe that comes in the general election after the primary is over. My fear is that the twitter types are going to drive the candidates way out to the left of Norway, and then we have someone who is just unelectable in the general. The twitter people don’t seem to show up to the polls and the dem candidates don’t seem to understand this.

Deukmejian?

Alas, septimus, the world would be a better place if the average voter formed opinions of candidates based on careful scrutiny of their policy proposals, but that is not the case.

The fact that the current Dem front runners are not 90-95% favorites to beat Trump tells me the wrong Dems are winning the primary.

That’s a bizarre hot take. The people asked to estimate the odds are the people voting for those winning candidates.

Rather, it should tell you how deeply pessimistic Democrats are about our nation’s electorate, that they think an enormous chunk of people will vote for Trump over any sane human being.

I agree with this quite a bit and have been thinking it for awhile myself–people have studied these voters in endless “profiles” written in the last 3.5 years but the reality is I think this set of voters is so irrational and unreliable that you can’t and shouldn’t build campaigns around them.

Agree with both of these as well.

This is actually such a frequently discussed topic but also a very difficult one. There’s a million experts sand a million answers, and we have no real idea if any of them are right. Neither do the experts themselves. The data is noisy, understanding motivations is hard. I’ve prognosticated on a lot of this stuff myself, and I think the real answer is don’t think about things like this, instead think about process, and build tactics from good process. To me such a strategy would have several guideposts/rules to follow:

1. Campaign on how you can make people’s lives better. I can’t name a single, non-incumbent President who has ever won that didn’t do this effectively. At least not in the modern era in which Presidents personally campaigned. Keep in mind this rule is open to wide gulfs in implementation. Compare the FDR campaign of 1932 to the Trump campaign of 2016. Both actually were campaigns where the candidate vigorously focused on how he would improve people’s lives if they voted for him. Trump’s was a far more negative campaign and focused in part on how he would improve people’s lives by going after the “enemies” of his voters.

2. Do not campaign on issues that don’t directly relate to 1, and especially stay away from issues that most Americans don’t care about. This is probably the biggest actual, strategic level mistake Hillary made. She spent way too much time calling Trump a stupid racist and not enough time on building her own message as to why a vote for Hillary is a vote for better times ahead. Hillary had the actual policy proposals and platform, but politics is more than just “having those”, it’s what you choose to spend ad buys and public appearances on.

3. We live in an era of big data, use it and adapt as it changes. We now know that Hillary’s campaign started to see internally that the Midwest was in trouble midway through the general. There was some classic groupthink going on where so many around her inner circle basically didn’t want to admit they were in trouble. So instead of addressing it at all, they ignored it. How exactly she could’ve responded is up for debate, what we know is about the only response we saw was a very, very late shift to make a few previously unplanned campaign stops.

4. Controversy creates cash. More than ever before we live in a 24 hour news, social media world. Getting attention gives you a stage and gives you a platform. Don’t ignore that once you get a platform you can say whatever you want, but getting a platform requires doing things that are exciting and generate interest.

5. There are 51 elections for President, not one. There is correlations between those elections and national sentiment matters, but you’re fighting for electoral college votes. At all stages of your planning you need to run things through this filter, if your data shows you’re struggling in states you need to win, you need to address that specifically. Don’t get stuck on “well if I do something that helps in Michigan it might hurt Hispanic turnout in Texas”, how are you doing in Texas? Does it matter? Focus on what matters.

6. Turnout and persuasion both probably matter, so you should probably do both. There’s good evidence that Trump was able to persuade some people to his side and that helped him. There’s also evidence that Hillary’s get out the vote process in places like Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee and other important locations was lack luster. This is really campaigning 101, but “turnout strategies” and “persuasion strategies” aren’t either or, most successful campaigns try to do both, and they try to focus them in the states that matter (see point 5.)

We’d have Marianne Williamson bringing us to the verge of a dictatorship involving “COEXIST” armbands. No thanks.

I think that Trump himself does a pretty good job of motivating the Democratic base. The key as I see it is to have a candidate who after a massive disinformation campaign, and likely an investigation by the US justice department can still maintain a higher approval rating than Trump.

The voters we have to worry about are the ones who are currently anti-Trump but will stay home because “Both are equally corrupt” or “At least the economy is doing OK, unlike what will happen if candidate X gets in.”

This post should be a sticky

Rubin wasn’t commenting on the mechanics of the primary—she was commenting on the wisdom of a circular firing squad. (IOW, it’s no smarter for the Democrats than it was for Trump’s rivals in 2016. Infamously, the GOP candidates failed to work together to counter Trump, instead choosing to go on sniping at one another.)

^ This (especially the parts I emphasized).

The Atlantic has a major new article out on the Trump campaign’s disinformation initiative: The 2020 Election Will Be a War of Disinformation - The Atlantic

NPR interviews its author:

The specifics Coppins goes on to describe are eye-opening.
The more we can keep a spotlight on what the Trumpites are up to, the better.

That doesn’t make sense. Virtually nobody gives a shit about Williamson. She doesn’t hold enormous rallies that energize her base. How on earth, even as a flippant throwaway comment, does Williamson 2020 look like Trump 2016?

EDIT: Never mind

Not doubting you but do you have a cite for this? I’ve seen that polling in the rust belt gave her only a razor-thin edge heading into the election, but I haven’t seen any more detailed data. It also seemed fairly obvious that her campaign wasn’t viewing the rust belt as a major swing region when it should have, but I haven’t seen any specifics.