Computer System Build Opinion Question

In My Humble Opinion
1

Sorry, the other two boards I know of where this would be a good question to ask (anandtech.com and tomshardware.com) are giving me trouble. Anandtech doesn’t seem to be accepting new members, and tomshardware claims I’m already a member but isn’t successfully sending my password to my email address for some reason when I ask it to.

My question is as follows. I can just barely not afford the following system:

Intel E6400
1 GB PC6400 RAM
Creative Soundblaster Audigy SE
Liquid Cooling
Geforce 8800 GTS

Making the following reductions makes the system more and more just barely affordable to me:

E6400 —> E6300
Liquid Cooling —> Simple Case Fan
Dedicated Sound —> Onboard Sound
Geforce 8800GTS —> Geforce 7950GT

My question is, what should be my order of preference for making these changes? My suspicion is that the order is the following, in order from most preferable downgrade to least preferable downgrade:

  1. Downgrade the cooling
  2. Downgrade the sound
  3. Downgrade the processor
  4. Downgrade the video card.

I think downgrading the cooling is almost certainly okay for a couple of reasons. I don’t think I really need it, as my present monitor can not display more than 1280*1024 resolution anyway and I doubt anything a game throws up at that resolution is going to be in danger of overheating anything. In any case, my understanding is that cooling boosts performance a little but not much, and is used mostly for overclocking, whereas I intend never to overclock anything.

I am loathe to downgrade the video card because for better or worse, I’m hoping the system I put together will last usefully for four years assuming I SLI it in a couple of years and maybe upgrade the processor at some point. I do not think any 7xxx series card will have the staying power of the 8xxx series cards. Besides 8xxx cards are capable of doing things 7xxx cards literally can not do, what with their geometry-shading shenanigans and all. I think the 8xxx series card is worth the expense if I can afford it.

I don’t expect downgrading the sound to have any but aurally aesthetic effects on my game playing, and I don’t think I care that much about that.

I have been told that there is actually a pretty serious difference between E6300 and E6400 chips in terms of performance, and that is why I put it near the bottom of the list.

Do you guys think I have my priorities straight? Why or why not? Do you think my judgment that liquid cooling is totally optional is sorely mistaken?

-Kris

2

Of everything, the first thing I’d drop is the sound unless you’re using it for music. As for the cooling, it’s not just for overclocking, but for improving longevity and, most importantly, noise reduction. QuietPC have lots of quiet kit.

But do you need to buy right now? While there’s always something better around the corner, right now you’re going to pay a premium price for that 8800 GTS. And you won’t get Vista.

Two other things: if you go for fluid cooling, make sure they don’t use water but use something like FluidXP. And go for 2 GB RAM, not 1 GB. 2 GB is already the sweet spot for many games, and this will be even more the case with Vista.

3

I will get vista–the system I’m looking at includes a free upgrade.

Regarding the RAM, I figured I’d pick up another gig along the way sometime.

Regarding the question of whether I need to buy a computer now, the answer is, no, but I really, really want to. :slight_smile:

How many months do you think it will be before I will see a substantial drop in the price of an 8800GTS? It seems like they usually realease the x6xx and x9xx a couple of months after the x8xx, right? And even at that point the price isn’t going to drop immediately, but only a few months later after everyone’s bought who’s going to buy at that price point. So I estimate at least another six months before the 8800GTS drops, and when it does, it will just be a drop of 50 to 100 dollars as far as I can tell from my vague memories about how this worked with the 6xxx and 7xxx series. I’m not sure that’s worth waiting for.

But what do you think?

Thanks for the comments. I’ll prioritize cooling more than I thought I needed to.

-Kris

4

At the site I’m looking at (cyperpowerpc.com, which I am almost certainly going to buy from because they are close enough to me that I can go pick it up thereby circumventing delivery fees, and also they seem cheaper than everyone else while still using the same brands) the only liquid cooling available uses water. What’s wrong with liquid coolers that use water?

Also, man, how safe is it? Do these things ever leak?

-Kris

5

If you absolutely had to do one of the following to a system:

Forego liquid cooling and use extra case fans instead, or
Forego an E6400 chip and use an E6300 instead,

which would you do?

Keeping in mind it’s very possible you’ll be upgrading the chip in 24 months or so to something higher than either of those options.

Also, I’ve never experienced a computer with extra case fans in it. Just how loud are we talking about here? I know it depends on the system, but is there some way I can get a feel for what kind of volume we’re talking about? Will people still be able to comfortably watch TV in the same room while I am running non-intensive applications on the computer?

Thanks for whatever charity you can show to my ignorance here.

-Kris

6

Forget the liquid cooling. Liquid cooling is expensive and a case fan is cheap. You are doing something wrong if you need liquid cooling without over clocking.

I recently made a computer with the E6300 and two extra case fans in the front. It is not very loud. The main thing is to get a quiet power supply.

I would also forget vista for the next 3 or 4 years it will not give you anything over XP and people will not create software that does not run on XP for 3 or 4 years because there will be so many people with XP still around.

Also forget upgrading the processor. New processors that give you much benefit will probably not work with your current motherboard.

7

Thanks for the advice.

I figured I’d get extra life out of my system, without having to buy a new motherboard, if in 18 to 24 months I upgraded from an E6300 to whatever they make next after the E6800s. I figured by then they’d be cheap and this would extend the life of my system for at least a year more. An AMD xp2500+ and xp3800+ can both fit on the same mobo, so if someone bought an xp2500+ in 2002, then upgraded in 2004 to the xp3800+, they’d probably be decently happy through the whole process until 2006 at which point they go for an E6300 on a new mobo.

I’m not concerned about Vista though it’s nice to know I can upgrade for free, and I don’t anticipate upgrading will cause any problems. (Will it?)

I’m still undecided about liquid cooling. What you’re saying matches what I’ve heard before–that it’s basically for overclocking–but Quartz seems to think otherwise so now I don’t know what to think.

-Kris

8

You need to try and decide what you want a fast system or a quiet system. Are you thinking about removing the fan from the videocard and liquid cooling that? Word on the street is that the Geforce 8800GTS is loud. If you don’t pull the fans off of it and liquid cool the card the system won’t be quiet.

I don’t know if it is possible to remove the fans from the video card easily. The video card I own (not a geforce card) it does not look like something I would want to attempt.

9

No, I wasn’t thinking about directly cooling the video card itself.

I don’t know what “loud” means in this context. Any idea where I could go to get an idea of what it sounds like when a system is “loud” due to its fans?

-Kris

10

I did a google on “geforce 8800 loud” and it seems like the consensus is that its not too loud. But still, I don’t know what “not too loud” means here.

-FrL-

11

Fans come with decibel levels. The price goes up as the db level drops - but still fans are pretty inexpensive.

I have a machine that runs 24/7 with 4 $3 fans in it (which are often quite dirty) as well as a heatsink fan and a small fan on my video card I think. It serves as my television, so while I am not playing high-end games on it, I’m running a lot of video for sometimes many hours at a time. The fans are never loud enough to bother me, and in 2 years now it hasn’t fried itself.

The machine isn’t in my bedroom, it’s down the hall in the living room. I don’t hear it unless I’m in the room with it.

If you aren’t looking for ultra cooling for your machine, and sound hasn’t crossed your mind, I would go with fans.

Oh, and the case is a 5-bay tower. Case size is something to consider when it comes to cooling - needs room for air flow. You start packing more heat-using hardware in smaller cases you WILL need to think about liquid cooling.

12

As someone who’s been using a watercooling rig for several years now…

Water cooling is entirely unnecessary if you’re not doing any overclocking. Also, consider that the Core 2 Duo processors don’t put out an excessive amount of heat. A good air-cooled setup, with a quality heatsink and one or two quiet 120mm case fans, will be just as good in your case. Leaks usually aren’t that much of a problem, if you do things carefully and test the cooling system before you install it in the computer.

Water is also pretty much the only reasonable liquid coolant for these purposes. The other alternatives, usually some sort of mineral oil or exotic halogenated organic, are expensive and not nearly as effective at transferring heat.

Personally, I would go with the add-on sound card. Onboard audio is usually crap (though I hear it isn’t as bad as it used to be) and I couldn’t stand it. All sorts of nasty interference and odd squeaky signals picked up from other parts of the computer… Plus, for gaming, EAX is pretty nice.

The 8800 is also overkill right now, unless you have a really high-res monitor. A 7950 is still plenty powerful. If you wait a half-generation or so, when games will actually be able to use that much power, you can probably get a more capable graphics card for dramatically less money. I.e. that 8950 gt (or whatever) for $300 will perform as well as the $600 8800 right now, and you wouldn’t have wasted your money on capability that you can’t yet use.

13

lazybratsche,

Thanks for your advice!

About the 8800, the thing is, I’m a little bit desperate to buy a computer now but I want, if possible, to get a system which will last me another four years or so with some upgrades. I think in four years I’ll be much happier I went with the 8800 rather than the 7950.

Of course in four years we’ll be on to directx 11 or 12 and discussions of the merits and demerits of 7xxx cards vs 8xxx cards may appear quaint. But as of now, you can still play new games with low settings on geforce FX5600 cards or above or so, but try it on ti4800 and you’ll probably not even be able to start the program much less get decent graphics. The switchover from 4xxx level cards to 5xxx level cards was right around 4 years ago if I remember correctly. Though I know these technologies don’t always accelerate at the same pace, what I’ve got to go on is that bit of data, and that bit of data makes me suspect that in four years SLI’ed 7950s will hardly be able to run games at all much less make them look okay, while SLI’ed 8800s will still be able to run them playably well.

Well, that’s a total guess, I know, but given that an expense like this is one I don’t expect to be able to undertake any more often than every three to five years or so, I have to do what I can to be as far-sighted as possible. At worst, the 8800 will be just as sad in four years as the 7950. At best, the 8800 will be better than the 7950. (Even if it turned out both are okay even four years from now, still, the directx 10 card will be capable of much more than the directx 9 7950.) What have I got to lose, then, in getting the 8800, other than a couple hundred extra bucks?

Quite possibly if I waited four to six months or so, the price would go down, or the 89xx series would come out for the same price the 8800 is available for now. But damn, that’s four to six months. I’m starting to be unable to play new games decently now :slight_smile:

Anyway, I’ve got a lot to think about. Thanks for all comments, more are welcome.

-Kris

14

I reckon the price of your graphics card will drop early in the new year. Right when the new Radeon comes out.

As for water-cooling, leaks do happen, and can be catastrophic. If you use an inert liquid, then if it does leak, you won’t lose any of your expensive equipment. Yes, they’re not as good as water at cooling, but they’re good enough.

15

What lazybratsche said.

I would downgrade the video card and cooling, keep the sound card. The CPU is good.

If you’re into gaming, even the most powerful video card will not last you four years, two at the most, a little longer maybe if you buy a card with twice the ram. Also, top of the line cards are very overpriced. Right now a 7950 is a decent choice price/performance wise, but a 7900 would be even better.

As for SLI, buying one now, one later, is usually not a sound strategy. When the time comes, your card may no longer be on the market, or is available only in a few stores and still carrying its original price tag. Plus, the added power from SLI is not that great. SLI is for people who has a lot of money, basically.

And yes, buy an extra gig of ram, make sure you get 2x1gb, not 4x512mb.

16

This seems to be more IMHO than GQ. With that in mind, I’ll add my own $.02.

First, keep the video card. The 8800GTS is a great piece, although spendy. The 8800 based cards are so much faster than the other cards on the market, that I couldn’t recommend the slower cards in a new gaming box. It also overclocks nicely if you need a little more performance down the road. Last, the image quality is far superior with the 8800 chipset versus the older cards (7950, 7900).

I would like to recommend two gigabytes of RAM, but it’s actually a good time to go with one and upgrade later. DDR2 is extremely high right now.

Dropping to a E6300 from E6400 isn’t a huge drop, but since you aren’t overclocking, what you buy is what you’re going to have. Keep the 6400 if you can.

If you’re not overclocking, drop the water cooling. It’s a waste of money. A stock cooler along with a decent case will keep your machine plenty cool. It will last for years barring a bad batch of chips or something.

From what I’ve been reading lately, that sound card isn’t going to help your frame rate much (if at all). You can always add a sound card later. It’s a good place to save a few bucks up front. Also, those sound cards don’t have a header for front headphone and microphone jacks (which are very nice if you case has them), but most motherboards do.

If you’re building your own, be careful on a few things. Some of the current Core2 motherboards are really fussy about what brand of RAM they use. Don’t try to save money on the power supply. Any higher end video card is going to require a lot of power. A power supply that doesn’t hold steady regulated power will lead to early failure of your components. I would worry about that long before I would worry about water cooling.

Regarding upgrading to SLI later, you do know that SLI requires a special chipset on the motherboard, right? The cheapest SLI motherboards are still around $250. You can get a good motherboard with just one PCIe 16x slot like a Gigabyte DS-3 for about $140 or so. Also, if you’re thinking about going SLI, you’re looking needing a 800W power supply, which would increase your initial cost. I say get the good video card now and don’t worry about SLI.

Good luck!

17

Since this is about opinions, let’s move it to IMHO.

samclem GQ moderator

18

Well, I’ll give my video card opinion once more with a bit more detail.

Looking at Newegg prices, you can get the 8800 GTS for around $470. A 7900 GT costs about half that, less if you count rebates, at $240 or so. For current games, both cards are essentially equally capable and can run all the eye candy at 1280x1024.

Personally, even if I could get the 8800 GTS, I would go for the 7900 GT right now. Then, in a year or two when DirectX 10 games come out and that 7900 GT starts to have trouble keeping up, I would spend another $250 to upgrade to a new (hypothetical) 8950 GT. In all likelihood, that new card will be better than the 8800 GTS, so you’ll be better off in the long run AND not spend as much money right now. Additionally, if you upgrade, you can also offload some of the cost by selling the 7900 GT (or pass it on to a friend, or put it in a secondary gaming rig…).

Of course, it’s your money, and the appeal of the big shiny new thing is always strong…

Although, if money were no object, I’d get a 8800 GTX in a heartbeat.

19

Although I agree with some of what you’re saying, it’s not true that a 7900GT can handle current games like Oblivion, NWN2, and some of the newer FPS’s, especially not with all the eye candy. Also, just about any review you read about the 8800’s talk about the outstanding image quality, something that was lacking with the 7900’s.

20

I think the Audigy is a waste of money unless you’re hooking it up to a surround system.