Concealed Carry Legal Question

[Una_Persson]

One of the provisions of most concealed carry laws is that businesses and others who wish to “opt out” of allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons on their premises must display appropriate signage informing people of this, and display it prominently at each point of ingress to the building. Here is a link to the Kansas example:

http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/concealcarrysignage.pdf

However, in practice many, many businesses do not do this. Their signs are smaller than required, placed in very obscure locations, do not have the appropriate figures or text, and otherwise do not comply with the law. Why do they do this? Sometimes it’s out of ignorance. However, other times it’s because the business does not want to draw attention to themselves by having a large gun ideogram on their door (something I’ve been personally told by business owners) so they take the chicken-shit way out and make a tiny, inconspicuous and non-compliant sign so no one will notice it. But if they ever catch a CCW holder on the premises they can play “gotcha!” and suddenly you’re an insta-criminal.

This came to my attention this last weekend when I discovered that a place I had been carrying my concealed handgun into in fact had tiny signs tucked out of the way where they absolutely were not visible. Of course, being a law-abiding gun owner I will cease carrying there, and in fact cease my patronage of their establishment whether I carry or not (especially since their place is one where large packs of wild teens hang out at very late at night). My factual question is: do CCW and/or legal Dopers here know of a case where a CCW holder was tried or prosecuted for being on the premises when a non-compliant sign is used?

(FTR, this is a factual question. No gun control debate allowed.)

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

The only case I found which even touches on a remotely related subject is [this one](edina community lutheran church v. state of minnesota), Edina Community Lutheran Church v. the State of Minnesota, in which a group of churches sued to be exempted from a Minnesota statute prescribing the exact form of the sign that had to be posted at public buildings, and won.

[drachillix]

I am not up on all the latest on such legislation but it would be a bear to enforce let alone prosecute. Even so it would most likely be a civil matter and not carry much criminal weight if any. When laws are written, they aspire to include any exceptions. Failure to meet those exeptions means do not have one or need to call your lawmaker asap for an adjustment if warranted.

I believe the places where CCW’s are generally not allowed to pack are pretty well defined and its mostly government buildings including schools and banks, stuff like that.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@drachillix

I am not up on all the latest on such legislation but it would be a bear to enforce let alone prosecute. Even so it would most likely be a civil matter and not carry much criminal weight if any.

Not a civil matter at all. Carrying a concealed weapon in an “opt-out” zone is a criminal offense- at least simple tresspass (prosecuted in the same way as, say, taking alcohol onto private property where alcohol is prohibited) and sometimes a more serious offense.

Una, you might find this (admittedly uncited) Wikipedia entry interesting:

In some situations, business owners post signs that appear to prohibit guns, but because the signs do not meet State or local law defining the appearance, placement, or verbiage of the sign, the sign does not carry the force of law and a permit holder can legally ignore it.

In Texas, for example, the specifications of a Section 30.06 sign prohibiting concealed carry are clearly defined, and only a sign meeting the specifications carries the force of the section. A sign, for example, that depicts the silhouette of a gun with a red circle and slash (similar to other signs prohibiting an action), that simply says “NO CONCEALED WEAPONS ALLOWED”, is too small, has incorrect text, is printed only in English or Spanish and not both languages, or is not placed prominently can technically be ignored as it doesn’t fulfill the requirements to ban permit holders from carrying concealed. Many of these points of law have yet to be tested in court, but such is explicitly taught by the state licensed concealed carry instructors.

Conversely, the intent of posting such a sign may only be to discourage entry while carrying by those unfamiliar with the law, which (almost by definition) typically includes only those not licensed to carry concealed handguns. Because a licensee is trained to recognize a valid sign and differentiate it from a nonbinding sign, posting an invalid sign for this purpose serves as a form of doublespeak, reassuring patrons who oppose concealed carry while at the same time not actually prohibiting concealed carry.

[GreasyJack]

And along those same lines you might be able to view the signs sort of like signs that say “no drugs allowed” in that they’re more interested in targeting non-licensed concealed weapons carriers. Obviously illegal drugs are no less legal somewhere with such a sign posted, but it’s a message (say, to the rowdy teens) that such things won’t be tolerated by the management.

[GaryM]

The law in Missouri specifies the size of the sign, 11"x14" IIRC, as well as the size of the lettering, 1".

Getting “caught” in a posted business becomes an issue only if you refuse to leave if asked. If they ask you to leave and you refuse and they call the police, you may be issued a ticket and be fined up to $100. But who’s to say that they won’t call the police and then claim they had told you to leave and you refused. Most of the folks I know don’t want to spend money where we’re not wanted.

Of course a business may ask anyone to leave at any time and if you don’t the police may be called to complete the ejection.

[drachillix]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Not a civil matter at all. Carrying a concealed weapon in an “opt-out” zone is a criminal offense- at least simple tresspass (prosecuted in the same way as, say, taking alcohol onto private property where alcohol is prohibited) and sometimes a more serious offense.

The charge as you describe is trespassing, not “bringing a firearm into an opt out zone”.

[Una_Persson]

In Kansas, it says:

Carrying a concealed weapon in violation of any restriction or prohibition allowed by subsection (a), if the premises are posted in accordance with rules and regulations adopted by the attorney general, is a class B misdemeanor.

The question of course is, if a sign is not posted in accordance to the rules, will an cop with a chip on his shoulder decide to arrest you anyhow, and will a DA with a similar chip decide to charge you anyhow, saying it’s “close enough” or that the intent was at least known? That’s the sort of case history I was hoping to find.

[Gbro]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

The only case I found which even touches on a remotely related subject is [this one](edina community lutheran church v. state of minnesota), Edina Community Lutheran Church v. the State of Minnesota, in which a group of churches sued to be exempted from a Minnesota statute prescribing the exact form of the sign that had to be posted at public buildings, and won.

Not a nit-pic, just a correction.

The church wasn’t the Edina C L C, and they didn’t win much of anything.
http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archive/ctappub/0504/opa041302-0412.htm
These were the churches that sued,
Unity Church of St. Paul, et al.,
Respondents,

Adath Jeshurun Congregation, et al.,
Respondents,

City of Minneapolis,
Respondent,

People Serving People, Inc., et al.,
Respondents,

The only thing that changed was churches do not have to post the sign on the door like other public buildings. The Church can post said notice in the bulletin and that will give them the same power of law as any other building with the sign posted. The church wanted more. They wanted to restrict guns from the parking lot also. That didn’t happen.
The only place a MN licensed concealed carry permit is not legal is a federal building.
Even if I were to carry into a school building inadvertently, where I am not suppose to I wouldn’t be a criminal. I would only be in violation if I didn’t leave with the gun as soon as I realized my mistake, or asked to leave. Even if someone saw the gun and called the police, my gun would not be taken as long as I left the building and I also have a permit and ID.
Now a LEO may take the gun, but, the law doesn’t allow for the forfeiture.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Gbro

Not a nit-pic, just a correction.

The church wasn’t the Edina C L C, and they didn’t win much of anything.

Linked wrong. :smack: See here: (.pdf) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/minnesotastatecases/apppub/0802/opa070131-0205.pdf

The charge as you describe is trespassing, not “bringing a firearm into an opt out zone”.

As I clearly noted, that’s what you’d be charged under in most jurisdictions.

[BlakeTyner]

I stay pretty up-to-date on the Texas CHL law, and there’s a great forum run by an attorney in the Houston area who specializes in it (I’d link it, but I’m not sure that’s allowed.) To my knowledge (and the lawyer’s) there’s never been a case in Texas of a CHL citizen being arrested or prosecuted for carrying a handgun in an improperly-posted place.

The 30.06 section of the law is pretty darn clear, and in practice I have only ever seen ONE valid posting of it–at a local bank. I’ve carried into buildings that had an old version of the sign, or the correct verbiage in an incorrect way (too small, letters not contrasting, not posted at every entrance, whatever.) Needless to say, the “Gunbusters” stickers get ignored.

What’s (somewhat) more interested is the valid posting of the 30.06 sign in a place that it is illegal to post it. IIRC, the American Airlines Center in Dallas is owned by the city, and the law makes it clear that places owned by the state/local government CANNOT be posted. I’m not aware that anyone has challenged it yet, but it’d be interesting to see what happened.

Likewise, “premises” has been pretty strictly defined, too. Even in “school zones,” you’re fine so long as you do not actually enter the building (excluding school events such as football games, which are off-limits. Things get even murkier when you consider, say, a school field trip or a softball tournament at a public park…the intent of the law seems to prohibit carry, but who knows?)

Short answer to the OP: there have been no incidents that I’ve heard of.

And, really, that’s not too surprising. How would anyone know you’re carrying, anyway? I’ve accidentally tucked my shirt behind my gun and walked around for a while with NOBODY noticing. Most people are kinda sheepish and oblivious. Now if you’d had to draw down in a place that had non-compliant signs…that could get stickier, but ultimately I think the CHL’er would be okay.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@BlakeTyner

What’s (somewhat) more interested is the valid posting of the 30.06 sign in a place that it is illegal to post it. IIRC, the American Airlines Center in Dallas is owned by the city, and the law makes it clear that places owned by the state/local government CANNOT be posted. I’m not aware that anyone has challenged it yet, but it’d be interesting to see what happened.

The American Airlines Center is owned by Center Operating Company, which is jointly owned by Mark Cuban and the guy that owns the Stars.

[devilsknew]

It’s not going to stop any of you concealed carry killers. You concealed carry people are murderers by legislation. Legal murderers made with every bullshit justification and obfuscation. Every concealed carry person I have met are psychopaths by nature and deluded paranoiacs in every sense of the word. You are all on the other side of normal… and afraid, most of all. Never give the fearing, death in the hand.

[GusNSpot]

Nice thing about this place. I went into the Post Office with my Jack Bauer bag, well actually a book bag from Micro-Soft, that had all my stuff including my weapon, wallet, cell phone. I was in shorts and could not carry all that and keep my pants up. ( I tremble at all the wrong things I was doing with just this. ) Anyway, I forgot and took it in with me. When I got to the counter and was doing my deal, I knocked the bag to the floor and the only thing to come out and skitter 10 feet across the floor in front of people, clerks, the main boss lady of that post office, a couple of kids was my weapon.

I said, "Oops !! ", went and picked it up and carried it back to the counter, put it back in the bag and not a word or look was said or done. No big deal. Not a blink. No comments on later visits. People around here are just not that uptight about it. Yay for small towns…

[BlakeTyner]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

The American Airlines Center is owned by Center Operating Company, which is jointly owned by Mark Cuban and the guy that owns the Stars.

Negative. It is owned by the City of Dallas. It is leased to a private party.

While American Airlines Center is not a hotel, it is City-owned and leased to a partnership owned by Stars and Mavericks.

Cite

[Colibri]

@devilsknew

It’s not going to stop any of you concealed carry killers. You concealed carry people are murderers by legislation. Legal murderers made with every bullshit justification and obfuscation. Every concealed carry person I have met are psychopaths by nature and deluded paranoiacs in every sense of the word. You are all on the other side of normal… and afraid, most of all. Never give the fearing, death in the hand.

[Moderator Warning]

This post is way out of line for GQ. If you want to express these kinds of opinions on the subject, it should have been obvious that the only appropriate place was the Pit. Don’t do this again.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[devilsknew]

@GusNSpot

I said, "Oops !! ", went and picked it up and carried it back to the counter, put it back in the bag and not a word or look was said or done. No big deal. Not a blink. No comments on later visits. People around here are just not that uptight about it. Yay for small towns…

Ummm. yea. What do you expect people to say to the guy with the gun? I can guarantee someone was scared silent.

[samclem]

@devilsknew

Ummm. yea. What do you expect people to say to the guy with the gun? I can guarantee someone was scared silent.

[MODERATOR WARNING–2nd one]
devilsknew
You were asked by a moderator a few hours ago to keep comments in General Questions appropriate for the forum. Your second comment(which I"ve quoted) is inapropriate as well. Please don’t sidetrack the OP. This is called “threadshitting.”

If you have anything to add to this thread with regard to the question about legality as posed by the OP, then do it. Anything else can be taken to the Pit.

samclem Moderator, General Questions

*Note–after looking at your posting history, this seems to be a habit. Your posting privileges are under discussion.

[Loach]

@Una_Persson

In Kansas, it says:

The question of course is, if a sign is not posted in accordance to the rules, will an cop with a chip on his shoulder decide to arrest you anyhow, and will a DA with a similar chip decide to charge you anyhow, saying it’s “close enough” or that the intent was at least known? That’s the sort of case history I was hoping to find.

There is nothing to stop a bad prosecutor or another official from doing the wrong thing, except a higher authority. I don’t of any cites from your state but the law seems to be written very clearly. If the sign is not according to the law, it is not enforcable. In NJ it is nearly impossible to get a permit for concealed carry so this is not an issue. But our law about handicapped parking is similar. It is the only parking offense that can be written on private property (I won’t go into the exceptions). The signs have to be the exact signs per the statute. If it isn’t, then the statute can not be enforced. That will not stop some newbie cop out of the acedemy from wrongly writing it but it shouldn’t get past the judge or the prosecutor.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@BlakeTyner

Negative. It is owned by the City of Dallas. It is leased to a private party.

Cite

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