I’m, by American standards, pretty moderate on gun control. I tend to support the right to bear arms but also to support background checks and mandatory training.
But I must admit that it’s never been one of my hot-button issues.
Can folks who care about both sides of this issue explain why concealed carry is
a) something lots of pro-gun folks seem to want
b) ‘better’ than open carry
From a safety/self-defense-and-defense-of-others point of view, why would open carry not be preferable? I’m nervous around weapons, but I think I’d be less nervous if I knew everyone who was carrying a gun was wearing it openly…
Is it the notion that CC people can come to the defense of the unarmed more effectively?
Some people get very nervous seeing anyone carrying a gun. Concealed carry requires those with such a license to have it concealed, i.e. carrying it exposed is a violation of the permit.
There are 51 different sets of laws on concealed carry. What **Omar Little **said about concealment being required is probably true in some places, but definitely not true in my home state of Ohio. Ohio allows open carry without any permit, but requires a permit to carry concealed. If I am carrying concealed and my gun becomes visible, I haven’t violated any requirement. My permit allows me to carry concealed, it doesn’t require that I do. Omar is correct that visible guns alarm many people.
The open versus concealed debate is far from resolved. Advocates of open carry claim it is a good crime deterrent; advocates of concealed carry claim that open carry can make the carrier a target in some situations and can increase the risk that the gun might be seized by a criminal.
I have never openly carried. Because of the laws in Ohio, I don’t have to be overly concerned about the degree of concealment that I achieve, but I don’t want to walk around with a pistol fully visible on my belt, primarily because I don’t want to alarm people.
I am not a gun owner, but I would have thought that a law allowing concealed carry would be a greater deterrent to crime in general than a law that forbids concealed carry. The deterrent value of law enforcement operates on a similar principle: cops can’t be everywhere at once, but if (for example) you don’t know whether there’ s a cop over the next hill, you’re deterred from going 40MPH over the limit just on the of-chance that there might be a cop. Likewise with CCW: in a city where the bad guys don’t know who is armed and who isn’t, they (the rational ones at least) may be more reluctant to cause trouble on the off-chance that their chosen victim may be armed and may respond with deadly force.
I’m not sure how much sense it makes to psychologize the deterrent effect of CC. How many would-be criminals have read up carefully on the CC laws in their locality?
Machine Elf, I agree with you. I think the public fact that there are half a million permit holders in Ohio is a pretty good deterrent to the extent that it is known to the relevant population.
It is possible that having those 500k people walk around with visible pistols would be a greater deterrent, I don’t know. I do know that I prefer to not draw attention to the fact that I am armed. As I mentioned in my first post, I don’t want to alarm folks who just don’t like guns. In addition, there are places where I can’t legally carry a gun. Some of these I know about in advance, so I can leave my gun in my car safe. In the cases of businesses that have signs on the door that say guns are prohibited on the premises, I don’t want to have to walk to my car with a gun on my hip and then walk away from my car without it, in plain view of anyone around me. A potential thief would be unlikely to get at my gun, but they would probably tear up my car trying.
DaphneBlack, I think criminals are pretty aware of the laws concerning buying and carrying guns. We are talking about a potential tool of their trade.
Several years ago, our sheriff at the time here in Colorado Springs did an informal survey of criminals in his jail. They said exactly the same thing. I think about half said that they were deterred from crimes against people precisely because they didn’t know who might be armed.
In Arizona, both open carry and concealed carry are legal without a permit. It’s the gun owner’s choice how he wants to carry his weapon. Open carry has always been legal. The permit requirement for concealed carry was lifted in 2010.
But it is my understanding that AZ still has concealed carry permit, allowing the holder to carry their weapon in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol and in Federal gun free school zones. These are verboten without the permit.
I’ve always figured that part of the reason for wanting one form or the other is based on the local weather: in the north, you’d want concealed carry, because otherwise you’d have to strap your gun on over your winter parka, and that’s just inconvenient. Similarly, in the south, when it’s 100 degrees out, you’d want open carry, because having to wear a sweatshirt or a coat over your gun would be a pain. And in most cases, you’d want both to be available so that you weren’t violating CC laws if you took your coat off, or OC laws if you put one on for some reason.
A person may enter a bar with a gun, but may not consume alcohol while in possession of a weapon. Additionally, business owners may forbid possession of a gun whether signs are posted or not.
If a person with a gun drives to a school, he must unload his weapon before entering school grounds. If he leaves his vehicle, he must leave the empty weapon locked out of sight in his vehicle.
If he is attending a gun safety class at a school, his weapon must be unloaded and in a carrying case.
Can I carry a firearm into an establishment that serves alcoholic drinks for consumption on the premises if I have a CCW permit?
Yes, unless the establishment has posted signs prohibiting weapons (A.R.S. 4-229). You may not consume alcohol while in possession of your firearm (A.R.S. 4-244). There are some additional exceptions see A.R.S. 13-3102.
What are the school exceptions when carrying concealed weapons?
Please see below for school exceptions (concealed or not):
You are an adult in a vehicle and the firearm is unloaded before entering school grounds. Furthermore, if you must exit your vehicle, the firearm must remain unloaded and be secured (locked) within the vehicle, out of plain view. Use caution and common sense if you must exit the vehicle with a firearm to secure it in the trunk (avoid causing a potentially serious disturbance).
You are an adult attending a firearms related class (hunter/safety) or participating in a school program that requires you to bring or possess a firearm and the training or event was scheduled and approved by school administrators. This exception also applies to a juvenile accompanied by a parent, grandparent, legal guardian or a certified hunter/firearms safety officer acting with the permission of a parent or guardian. The firearm will be unloaded before entering school grounds and should be placed in a case to avoid causing a potentially serious disturbance.
Additionally, designated employees of a school may order a person off of school property if that person is believed to be interfering with school operations. School boards may also enact specific and more restrictive rules governing firearms and deadly weapons on school grounds (ARS 13-2911).
Peace officers are exempted from this restriction.
Sorry, no. Weather has nothing to do with it. There are myriad ways to carry on one’s person which negate anything to do with a coat or jacket or even pants, for that matter.
A few drawbacks (no pun intended) of open carry is you can’t waltz into banks, Post offices, courthouses and bars and shit. You know, the kind of places we all really like to hang out in.
You do get a wide berth in the supermarket, however.
Serious note: You really have to watch your shit when open carrying. You can not let a loony get control of your weapon. Biggest downside, and reason I almost never do it in “public”. Its fine out in the middle of the desert or mountains, but in the mall, not so much.
I’m a CCL holder and am carrying most of the time. Of course, I’m also in a state where open carry is illegal, and carrying at all was illegal until just about 3 years ago - so you will draw ALL the attention if anyone spots you’re carrying. No one around here is used to anyone but gangbangers and cops carrying guns. Concealing and not even a hint of printing is paramount around here. No one knows I carry regularly.
That said, I still think open carry is a mistake most of the time. The biggest part is that you’re prone to someone trying to grab it right out of the holster. Especially if you carry behind the 3 or 9 o’clock positions. There are tons of YouTube videos showing customers in stores getting their guns grabbed from them while waiting in line. After that, just making yourself the first target in any situation is not a good self-defense tactic - and open carrying will always make you a target.
I was taught, and am continually re-trained as a carrier, to follow the sequence of avoid, defuse or prevail. Open carrying pretty much defeats the first two (the second I’m spotted avoidance is futile, and automatically escalates rather than defuses a situation) and puts me at a disadvantage with the third (element of surprise or biding time is nonexistent - someone with a gun mugging me isn’t going to fall for me fumbling around for phone or wallet, I’m stuck with hands up and getting frisked if I have a chance at all). One can argue that open carrying causes avoidance and defusing in the first place by making criminals not consider you at all - but what if it doesn’t?
It depends on the state. In Arizona, it’s legal to carry into a bank, unless posted. Courthouses have officers and metal detectors. You have to remove all metal objects from your pockets. And the detector will ping on a concealed gun. No way are the officers going to let you through. Guns are prohibited in all Federal buildings, so guns aren’t allowed in the post office.
Of course, peace officers have limited or full permission to carry in most cases.
This is fear-mongering. It ignores virtually all the known facts.
There is precisely ONE documented instance that I am aware of where somebody took an open carrier’s gun. If open carry were so dangerous to the person doing it, then police officers would be getting gunned down left and right for their weapons.
Oh yeah, that’s right – the people who argue against open carry somehow manage to forget the fact that the police do it literally every single day.
And yes, open carry does deter criminals.
For more stories, go here, and scroll about 60% of the way down.
