Congrats, yer a hysterical bigot, lady, righty radio & lefty media both proud

[Larry_Mudd]

@Age Quod Agis

Apparently, the investigative journalists at the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the major television networks never thought to pick up a phone. The kid from Stanford even wrote a pretty funny article.

I don’t think it’s a question of inability to chase down that information – I think it’s more likely that real news organizations are more hesitant to expose innocent people to needless risk. Annie Jacobson is hitting the circuit now, and sticking to her assertion that these men are terrorists and that they were just practicing. I just saw her on CNN again saying that she thought they just learned to play instruments (and presumably established enough of a reputation to get bookings) in order to provide a cover for their sinister plot.

A certain amount of people are going to be inclined to believe her, no matter how ludicrous the idea is. How does that affect the musicians’ personal safety? Now that their identities are known, all it takes is one nut who’s credulous and delusional enough to think that he can be a hero by killing a band-leader in order to prevent a 9/11-scale attack. How likely do you think they are to get another booking in the United States? Any news organ that identified them might be held liable for loss of earnings, at a minimum.

[Age_Quod_Agis]

@Larry Mudd

A certain amount of people are going to be inclined to believe her, no matter how ludicrous the idea is.

And a certain amount of people are going to believe they’re innocent, no matter what. That’s the world for ya.

@Larry Mudd

How does that affect the musicians’ personal safety? Now that their identities are known, all it takes is one nut who’s credulous and delusional enough to think that he can be a hero by killing a band-leader in order to prevent a 9/11-scale attack.

But their identities have been made known in a story saying they’re not terrorists. Sure, crazies and idiots might still attack them just because they’re Middle Eastern or whatever, but that was true before this mess ever occured. The news media can’t be responsible for attacks just because they gave someone good press.

@Larry Mudd

How likely do you think they are to get another booking in the United States?

I have no idea. How many times were they booked in the States before this? Since they were so hard to track down, it seems likely that they weren’t here every weekend. But it’s certainly possible that getting their names out there, especially in a story that says they’re not terrorists, will lead to more gigs in the States. Any publicity is good publicity?

I could be wrong about that. But it’s certainly not a foregone conclusion that their business is going to be hurt.

@Larry Mudd

Any news organ that identified them might be held liable for loss of earnings, at a minimum.

Any news organ that identified them in a story clearing the band’s good name? I think the band would have a hard time selling a defamation suit based on those facts.

And the media has reported more egregious stories with less basis than this. For example, the story of the accused – and subsequently exonerated – bomber of Olympic Park in Atlanta, Eric Rudolph. The media had no problem with plastering his name and face all over the place in 1996. Why is this situation different?

I’m all for responsible journalism. But I have a hard time believing that publishing a story that shows that these guys didn’t do anything wrong is irresponsible in any way.

[DMC]

@Age Quod Agis

And the media has reported more egregious stories with less basis than this. For example, the story of the accused – and subsequently exonerated – bomber of Olympic Park in Atlanta, Eric Rudolph. The media had no problem with plastering his name and face all over the place in 1996. Why is this situation different?

Unless he was exonerated in the last couple of weeks, you’re mistaken. Eric Rudolph is scheduled to stand trial for that bombing (and several others, too). Perhaps you mean Richard Jewell, who was indeed smeared in the media pretty badly. Of course, if we use him as an example, then the band is likely to be hurt by this, his “life was in ruins” after his name came out. The good news is that the band might be able to recuperate their potential losses, as Richard Jewell sued a lot of folks involved, and recently settled with NBC for $500,000.

[Excalibre]

@Edlyn

What a fine example of how “tolerant” you are as opposed to the “intolerance” shown by the couple.

You may now :smack: yourself hard three times. At least.

Sweetpea, note that I’m judging them for their behavior; they judged the scary scary Syrians on their ethnicity. I didn’t make cowardly, unsupported accusations based on someone’s nationality. They did. So yeah, what I said may be harsh, but I still think it’s a little more fair than her article.

[Baldwin]

Approximately 10 minutes later, that same flight attendant came by with the drinks cart. She leaned over and quietly told my husband there were federal air marshals sitting all around us. She asked him not to tell anyone and explained that she could be in trouble for giving out that information. She then continued serving drinks.

About 20 minutes later the same flight attendant returned. Leaning over and whispering, she asked my husband to write a description of the yellow-shirted man sitting across from us. She explained it would look too suspicious if she wrote the information. She asked my husband to slip the note to her when he was done.

Doesn’t this raise some fun questions? 1) Why the hell do they need a written description? If they think the man is up to something, they’ll retain him when they land. You need a description when you’re looking for somebody, not when he’s sitting there in Coach right in front of you. 2) If for some reason they needed somebody to write down a description, why did the flight attendant ask a frightened civilian to do the job, rather than one of the federal air marshalls that were “sitting all around” them?

I’ve got two guesses: 1) This part of the story is just self-aggrandizing bullshit; 2) The flight attendant was trying to humor our hapless couple because they seemed to be approaching hysteria over nothing.

I wonder what kind of plane this was? The Hendersons sat in Coach, but seem to have been able to closely observe what went on all over the aircraft. Maybe they’re just really sharp-eyed.

[Larry_Mudd]

@Age Quod Agis

But their identities have been made known in a story saying they’re not terrorists. Sure, crazies and idiots might still attack them just because they’re Middle Eastern or whatever, but that was true before this mess ever occured.

But anyone who’s looked into the story will have seen the numerous ominous comments people have made – when the only authority cited in the article itself exonorates the band. You know, stuff like this:

But what is the IMPLICATION of this, other than raising public awareness that terrorism is still a very REAL threat?

Law enforcement is simply not enough to counter the threat.

(My emphasis.) The chance of “crazies and idiots” wanting to attack them just because they’re Middle Eastern is anywhere near equivalent to “Crazies and idiots are actively accusing them specifically of being terrorists, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.”

Dave Adams told everyone that interviewed him that everything checked out, that the band was legit, that they played their gig and then left. Still, hundreds of people commenting on those stories remained convinced that they must be terrorists. No reasonable person needs more information than a reliable source indicating that they were thoroughly investigated and found to be innocent – and people who remain unconvinced are unlikey to be swayed by the addition of identifying information. So who does that serve?

@Age Quod Agis

Since they were so hard to track down, it seems likely that they weren’t here every weekend.

But they weren’t hard to track down. It’s not like journalists would have had to spend time systematically calling casinos to track down the name of the band. They could have asked Mr. Adams. Now that the information is out there, it’s still not being mentioned in print or broadcast media – because it adds nothing to the story but the potential for harm to innocent individuals.

[Larry_Mudd]

For “anywhere near equivalent” read “nowhere near equivalent.”

My coffee’s almost ready.

[Jackmannii]

It’s legitimate to have doubts about at least parts of this woman’s story (including her supposedly being briefed sotto voce about the air marshals, and details of what the Syrian passengers were doing).

If one is not convinced that she is a substantial liar, then she has realistic and serious concerns.

The behavior of members of this group (as described) was peculiar, and yes, markedly more suspicious in this day and age because they were Arabs. That does not make her a bigot.

“I doubt she’d have be making moment by moment notes of every movement made by fourteen Swedes”

Nope. Possibly this is because Swedes have not been hijacking airlines and crashing them into buildings, not to mention other associations with terrorist acts in various parts of the world.

I don’t discount the possibility that, as a result of suspicious and hostile looks from people around them, these guys decided to have a little “fun” gaslighting the passengers (motivated by the same sort of nimrod impulse that leads to “jokes” in the security line about having a bomb). I’ve wondered whether that case of the woman who overheard Arab-looking men at a Shoney’s restaurant allegedly plotting something evil could have been related to the same sort of “gag”.

I haven’t heard of Jacobsen’s followup remarks in which she allegedly claims this really was a dry run, the musician story not withstanding. But there are questions raised here which do deserve answers. Do we really have a policy establishing a small quota for how many Arabs in a group can be searched and questioned? Are orthopedic shoes and other prosthetic devices off limits? Is there a Syrian custom that adult men go to the can in large groups, sort of like giggly teenaged girls at a party?

I’d love to see some of the doubters who’ve expressed themselves forcefully here, placed on a flight under similar circumstances to see just how relaxed you’d be.
Be skeptical, sure. But a lot slower to scream “Bigot!”.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Swedes have not been hijacking airlines and crashing them into buildings

Neither have Syrians.

[Jackmannii]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Neither have Syrians.

Syria has a long history of backing terrorists and is listed by the U.S. as an official state sponsor of terrorism. Sweden isn’t.

Syria’s government has recently taken a few steps to demonstrate that it is cooperating in anti-terrorist efforts. Which raises another interesting question. Did U.S. authorities play down the “musician incident” to avoid antagonizing Syria?

This article provides some background.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

So the answer is, no, Syrians are not any more likely to hijack planes than Swedes are.

There was nothing to “play down,” btw. They were musicians. There was no “incident” except a case of paranoid mass hysteria by some passengers.

[Mtgman]

This incident is actually evidence of injustices perpetuated by profiling. The passengers in question raised concerns based on flawed profiles. Although the profiles authorities would use would undoubtedly be better tuned there would still be such injustices. Odds are the false positives would far outweigh the actual incidents correctly identified. If the criteria were narrowed to reduce false positives then the terrorists could change tactics slightly to defeat the profile.

There is no point on a continuium of effectiveness for profiling that I have ever seen which is acceptable. Either they are too generic and catch innocents or they are too specific and the guilty parties can slip past by changing their behavior/appearance slightly.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Cervaise]

@Age Quod Agis

And a certain amount of people are going to believe they’re innocent, no matter what.

In the absence of any actual evidence of evil intent, the only responsible position — the only American position, mind you — is to maintain their innocence. Show me legitimate evidence, and I’ll throw 'em in the Bad Guy bucket along with Mohammad Atta and the rest, and so will everybody else with more than three brain cells (which excludes, of course, the fringy lost-cause loons who have always been immune to reason, and further who make up a far smaller fraction of the left than you seem willing to conceive). Until such evidence is presented, these men have no business being put anywhere near said bucket.

Thus, in the absence of any actual evidence of evil intent, steadfast belief in their guilt can be safely ascribed to irrational paranoia and hysterical delusion. The way the woman’s story seems to be subtly evolving as she finds herself on the receiving end of certain parties’ adulation is evidence enough of her lack of impartiality regarding the incident.

[Age_Quod_Agis]

@Cervaise

In the absence of any actual evidence of evil intent, the only responsible position — the only American position, mind you — is to maintain their innocence.

First of all, please refrain from telling me what is or is not “American.” It’s annoying and simple-minded and a little bigoted.

Second, Americans are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I am not a court of law. I get to make up my own mind. So, for example, my kids will not be spending the night at Michael Jackson’s place, despite the fact that he’s never been convicted of child molestation or pedophilia. Nor would I want my daughter dating OJ.

Anyway, if you’d take a look at my prior posts, I’m the one that posted the article showing that these guys are innocent. I believe they’re innocent. I have always believed that if the feds checked them out and they came back clean, then they were clean. So I don’t know who you think you’re responding to here, but it ain’t me.

@Cervaise (emphasis added)

Show me legitimate evidence, and I’ll throw 'em in the Bad Guy bucket along with Mohammad Atta and the rest, and so will everybody else with more than three brain cells (which excludes, of course, the fringy lost-cause loons who have always been immune to reason, and further who make up a far smaller fraction of the left than you seem willing to conceive).

Where did that come from? I never said that the people who always think everyone is innocent are lefties. In fact, they are just as prevalent – if not more – on the far right. And I never gave any indication of the size that faction. Basically, you just made up a stupidly partisan statement and ascribed it to me.

If you want to talk about this issue, then great. But please refrain from “responding” to statements that I haven’t made just so you can slip in a psuedo-zinger.

[Apos]

@Jackmannii

I’d love to see some of the doubters who’ve expressed themselves forcefully here, placed on a flight under similar circumstances to see just how relaxed you’d be.

Be skeptical, sure. But a lot slower to scream “Bigot!”.

Do you specialize in being thick-skulled, or is it just something you were born with? Time and time again people here, including me, the OP, have pointed out that there’s nothing bigoted with fear or gut reactions or even suspicion. It translates over into bigotry when she tries to draw ridiculous conclusions based on the exact opposite of what the facts later showed. When she tries to maintain that they were conducting a dry run, all facts to the contrary. In retrospect, the vast majority of the “suspicious” behavior is all either explicable in the context of the real situation (they were a band), or based on exaggerrated importance given to various details that would be totally innocuous if presented in a matter of fact manner.

[imthjckaz]

The last man came out of the bathroom, and as he passed the man in the yellow shirt he ran his forefinger across his neck and mouthed the word “No.”

Maybe mouthing the word “No” was a short for "Dude, do not go in there! I just took the biggest crap. Oh man, if you value your olfactory senses, you will not go in there!"

Well, it coulda.

[Larry_Mudd]

A few things…

On identifying the band, and possible negative effects of that.

More from Mr. Adams:

“They were a Syrian band that was traveling to Southern California to perform in a desert casino,” Adams said.

He said that federal agents verified the Syrians’ story by following them to the casino and watching them perform before seeing them off two days later on a flight from Long Beach to New York.

Citing privacy, Adams wouldn’t identify the casino or the band to corroborate the government’s version of events.

“The band did nothing wrong. We would not release the name,” Adams said.

Being mentioned in connection with this incident has already had an impact on someone who wasn’t even there:

Kinan Azmeh, of the band Kulna Sawa, says he hasn’t been to California since 1998, when he performed with the Syrian National Symphony Orchestra.

But an Internet account of the recent airline incident wrongly linked Kulna Sawa to the event.

The confusion, Azmeh said, has complicated plans for Kulna Sawa tour stops in the Golden State.

“The name is being used in a terrible context,” said Azmeh, who said he regularly endures five- to six-hour waits at airports. “We are planning our tour. I’m a bit concerned about all this.”

What that means for Nour Mehana, for whom U.S. appearances were apparently common enough that one of his most popular CDs is titled Live in Los Angeles, remains to be seen.

[Age_Quod_Agis]

@Larry Mudd

Being mentioned in connection with this incident has already had an impact on someone who wasn’t even there:

Which means that the media should not have published the name of the band that was actually on the plane? Innocent people are being blamed for something that they had nothing to do with, and you think the responsible thing is for the media to keep quiet about the truth?

[Larry_Mudd]

Yes, that’s the responsible thing to do.

A post misidentifying Kulna Sawa as the “Terror in the Skies” band is the number one return on Google for the term “Syrian band.” The number two result is a correction on the same webpage:

Email from Syrian band
I just got this email:

I am Manager of the Kulna Sawa/Together Concert for Peace Tour which will take place in November. The group is currently in Syria and is not in any way involved with the recent incident referred to on your web site. The Concert for Peace Tour is designed specificially to counter this kind of misunderstanding which is so prevalent today in the United States.

Mel Lehman
Concert for Peace Tour
New York City

There is an update on the #1 result with a correction and a link to the e-mail.

This is the best way to deal with negative attention attracted by the irresponsible misidentification of an innocent party.

The band at the center of this mess is also an innocent party. Releasing their names in the media-at-large so that they might be made the target of harassment and threats, rather than a totally unconnected, but equally innocent band, is not an improvement. It would be a vastly more irresponsible action than the blogger’s irresponsible action, since broadcast and print media have a much larger audience. If the band’s name was all over the Post, and Fox News, and CNN, there would be that many more credulous fucking wingnuts in possession of that information. Not a good situation when you’ve got Annie on the circuit continuing to insist that she really saw a “dry run.”

A significant number of people are under impression that this band leader is the next Atta, just testing the water. It’s not at all inconceivable that someone might try to kill him. I mean, hell, if I thought he was a terrorist who was planning to use another hijacking to kill god-knows-how-many people, and I sincerely thought that “political correctness” was rendering the proper authorities impotent with regard to doing anything about him, (which many people apparently do,) why then, I’d kill him.

Fortunately, I have a capacity for reason, and confidence that an identified terror suspect in the United States would be apprehended by the FBI or DHS before they were able do any harm. Looking at the chatter on the blogosphere, though, it’s clear that there is no shortage of tin-foil types that are convinced both that it’s only a matter of time before these 14 men try something “for real,” and that fairy-tale PC regulations like “We’re only allowed to search two Arab men on each flight” and other restrictive policies forced on the authorities by Looney Liberals, leave America totally vulnerable. I’m sure that very nearly all of this chatter comes from blowhards that are just talking, but all it takes is one guy who really means it to do something with irreversable consequences.

Consideration for the band members’ privacy and safety is paramount. That’s why responsible news agencies haven’t released their names. Obviously.

If some hysterical freak drummed up a huge amount of attention by claiming to have spotted the nearly-forgotten anthrax mailer plotting another attack in a local Horton’s, and her widely-spread account of the incident turned out to stem from them watching you write a letter to your aunties with traces of powdered sugar from a box of Timbits on your fingers, and lots of people seemed to believe her, even though the FBI had already said it was a totally innocent thing, would you want your name and picture all over the network news?

[Orbifold]

@Jackmannii

But there are questions raised here which do deserve answers. […] Is there a Syrian custom that adult men go to the can in large groups, sort of like giggly teenaged girls at a party?

Oh sweet baby Jesus.

Can we have a list please? Of those nationalities which can go to the bathroom in groups on airplanes without invoking a TSA investigation, and those who can take a fucking piss in peace?

I think I have just reached my personal limit. I can put up with long lines, with taking off my belt and my shoes as I go through security, with getting pulled out of line at both security and at the gate just because my passport is Canadian. I can put up with the fact that 14 Syrian men booking one-way tickets on the same flight raises a red flag, moreso than 14 Swedish men. I think that asking people to take off their orthopedic shoes isn’t unreasonable, and I don’t see why we should limit the number of Arab people who get searched on any particular flight.

But it is my considered opinion that if we, as a society, have reached a point where we must say yes you can hang out with your friends outside the washroom, but no you had better just stay in your seat because we can’t trust you to stand outside a fucking washroom then we have all gone completely fucking batshit.

Annie Jacobsen is a paranoid, hysterical putz. It is my sincere hope that she’s seated next to a Syrian man or woman on every flight she ever takes, ever again.