Consciousness in the womb

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@TonySinclair

There’s the rub. Even if your memories correspond with verifiable events, you can never prove that you aren’t remembering what you imagined when someone told you about it.

Memory is a weird thing. I’ve always had a great memory — for my experiences, for facts and trivia, for poems and speeches, etc. But one of my most vivid memories was when I was watching golf on TV, and Tiger Woods made his famous “better than most” 60-foot putt on 17 at TPC Sawgrass, and I yelled at my dad, who was in the kitchen, to hurry up and come back to the living room so he could see the replay.

They play a clip of that putt fairly often on the Golf Channel, which I watch all the time, and for several years, every time they played it, I thought of when I saw it “live” and yelled for my dad to watch it, and how that was one of the last times I saw him before he died suddenly of a heart attack.

Only problem, a couple years ago I looked it up, and found that it occurred in March of 2001. And my dad died in February of 2001.

So…you imagined your Dad was there when he wasn’t?

[panache45]

@elfkin477

What you’re looking for is information on fetal brain waves development since brain waves are what prove a person is conscious rather than in a coma. The hard part will be finding an unbiased source not related to pro-life and pro-choice arguments.

Yes, that’s basically what I’m looking for. At what level of development do brain waves begin . . . and what causes them to begin? And I agree, there may not be unbiased data.

[Anne_Neville]

@panache45

At what level of development do brain waves begin

The Master speaks. He says at roughly 25 weeks after conception.

[Duckster]

@Anne_Neville

The Master speaks. He says at roughly 25 weeks after conception.

But are we talking a detection of brainwave activity or actual cognitive thought? Seems to me at 25 weeks is akin to just turning on the old AM radio and hearing static. It’s gonna be a while before the tuning begins and there is a defined signal, let alone actually hear Slim Whitman’s voice.

[Anne_Neville]

@Duckster

But are we talking a detection of brainwave activity or actual cognitive thought? Seems to me at 25 weeks is akin to just turning on the old AM radio and hearing static.

He doesn’t say. I’d be very interested to know, being 20 weeks pregnant (18 weeks after conception, remember pregnancies are usually dated from last menstrual period) myself right now.

I’m NOT volunteering to let anybody put an EEG on my fetus. That sounds really uncomfortable.

[Smeghead]

This question isn’t going to go anyplace until someone can define exactly what consciousness is and how to measure it. Until then, it’s all more or less educated speculation. And if someone does manage a clear, unambiguous, scientific definition, well then, this will be the first Internet thread to win a Nobel Prize.

[Anne_Neville]

@Smeghead

This question isn’t going to go anyplace until someone can define exactly what consciousness is and how to measure it. Until then, it’s all more or less educated speculation. And if someone does manage a clear, unambiguous, scientific definition, well then, this will be the first Internet thread to win a Nobel Prize.

A clear, unambiguous scientific definition of consciousness would be helpful in studying animal consciousness and artificial intelligence, too.

It would be even better if you found a test that returned a simple yes-or-no answer as to whether an animal, fetus, or machine was conscious. That could solve sticky dilemmas in the abortion debate and the animal rights debate, just for starters.

[njtt]

@Smeghead

This question isn’t going to go anyplace until someone can define exactly what consciousness is and how to measure it. Until then, it’s all more or less educated speculation. And if someone does manage a clear, unambiguous, scientific definition, well then, this will be the first Internet thread to win a Nobel Prize.

Clear, unambiguous definitions of consciousness are ten a penny. The hard part is getting people to agree as to which, if any, is the right one.

Also, although success on this point would no doubt lead to much acclaim, it is not clear to me that it would fall under any of the actual Nobel Prize categories. (Well, maybe Medicine at a very large stretch.)

[RaftPeople]

@Anne_Neville

It would be even better if you found a test that returned a simple yes-or-no answer as to whether an animal, fetus, or machine was conscious. That could solve sticky dilemmas in the abortion debate and the animal rights debate, just for starters.

I’m guessing, but I doubt yes-or-no is likely except at the extremes.

Seems like it’s going to be a continuum.

[panache45]

So if I may rephrase my question: Do we know what ignites that very first spark of brain wave activity? Someone in the field of artificial intelligence may have some insights on this . . . or at least some better-defined questions. And then there’s the whole can of worms of “free will.”

[njtt]

@panache45

So if I may rephrase my question: Do we know what ignites that very first spark of brain wave activity? Someone in the field of artificial intelligence may have some insights on this . . . or at least some better-defined questions. And then there’s the whole can of worms of “free will.”

That is a very different question from your original one, and although I can’t answer it myself I am sure a developmental physiologist could do so quite easily. Brain wave activity is just electrochemical activity in nerve cells. There is nothing mysterious about it. (Well, except for the mystery of how it relates to actual consciousness.)

I really do not know why you think “someone in the field of artificial intelligence” would have anything to offer on this issue, however. They do not generally know or particularly care about the development of embryos. Furthermore, generally speaking, they would be the wrong people to ask about the nature of consciousness too. For the most part, AI research is implicitly predicated on the notion either that consciousness does not exist, or that, if it does, it is irrelevant to the issues with which they are concerned. Inasmuch as AI people have anything to say about consciousness, they are just doing amateur philosophy.