CONSCRIPTION (NATIONAL SERVICE)

In the UK we used to have it. Now we don’t. Everybody had to do two years in the army, navy or airforce, presumably with sensible exceptions.

So what I’m wondering is whether or not we should bring it back. I seem to remember from a Yes Prime Minister episode that the best arguments for it are:

(a) to reduce unemployment

(b) give kids a comprehensive education to make up for their comprehensive education. Maybe they’ll even learn to read.

© perhaps inspire a bit of motivation more effectively than restart courses and TV programmes can.

(d) many people benefit from being shouted at

The best arguments against it were shown to be

(a) the army hates the idea because dealing with people who don’t want to be there really doesn’t make anything any easier

(b) whatever way you look at it, you’re training young people to kill

© patriotism looks a bit scary these days

(d) many people don’t benefit from being shouted at

So whaddaya think? I have no idea how things work in the US. I guess you don’t have conscription or I’d have heard about it by now. But given that there is a massive military industrial thing going on in various countries these days… could it perhaps serve a purpose other than (pah) defending our freedom?

There are bound to be other and better arguments. But after spending my time drifting around the lonely wasteland of unemployed youth, and considering the amazing change wrought in myself and my ex-drop-out friends after time in harsh rehabs, effective prisons and other no-nonsense training programmes, I wonder if it’s that bad an idea. Of course I haven’t considered WAR in this at all. I’m really talking about peacetime conscription here, but given the astonishingly low casualty rate on the US side in the Gulf, (79, Bill Hicks said), aren’t we living in a very different world now?

Let me start by refuting the four arguments for conscription.

The kids will be back in 2 years and still without a job. That does not solve unemployment at all.

I don’t think people learn much in the army other than to kill people and to give up your life to a certain region of land surrounded by invisible borders in which you happen to live.

There are other ways to give people motivation. If the kids are staring at the TV all day, it’s the parents’ fault. Unplug the TV and get them outside if they’re undermotivated!

How? I don’t see any benefit to getting the shit scared out of me. In fact, I can see how that could warp the kids’ minds.

Here in the US, it’s not mandatory to go through military training, but if you’re over 18, they can force you to go fight in a war if one is going on. Since I’m a pacifist, I think I’ll run away to Canada if they try that on me, or I could just break my leg.

Here in the U.S., all males of the appropriate age are required to be registered for the military draft. Of course, the draft hasn’t been put into effect recently, and probably won’t be anytime soon. I’d imagine that most Americans would be opposed to such an idea; young people would want to be conscripted, and middle aged people wouldn’t want their children’s education or careers to be disrupted. Of course, there are a few Americans who think it’s a good idea. This editorial suggests that all young Americans (male and female) should be forced to register for 18 months for either military or civil service:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0111.moskos.glastris.html

Personally, I’m opposed to the idea of a peacetime draft. Government exists for the sake of protecting the people, and it is morally correct to run a wartime draft if necessary to keep the nation safe. However, I don’t see where the government gets the right to run a peacetime draft, especially if its purpose is to ‘install a sense of civic duty’ or some other such non-military explanation. Beyond that, the idea is just horrendously impractical. It’s expensive, disruptive to people’s lives, and we don’t really need more people for the military anyway.

Yeah, the unemployment argument was basically designed to reduce unemployment statistics, for re-election’s sake. However most folk I know who were in the army learned at least one useful job, whether it was cooking, tailoring, or - unfortunately - killing. And they learned discipline too, although I accept there are other ways. For what it’s worth I benefited a good deal from finally having someone care enough to shout at me and force me to confront my problems instead of running away or ignoring them. It happened in a Bible College rather than the army, but the ethos was the same. And I scrubbed more boots.
I also agree that it’d be disruptive to people’s lives, but I can think of times when I’d have welcomed that. I believe most of those who did national service were pretty unimpressed by the experience.

Put me down as in favor of the unpopular policy. I am convinced the mandatory national service of some sort on completion of high school/age 18 would be beneficial for the country and for the individuals involved. The real question is how you pay for it and how you deal with the tendency to allow the politically influential to opt out.

I’m going to answer from a french point of view. Conscription existed here since the Revolution. It has been “suspended” recently (the very last draftees are probably still wearing an uniform). The reason is simple : the military have no more use for them. As long as the main threat was a war in Europe, the army needed gun feeder. But in the current situation, it’s a waste of money. They need less troops but better trained, and more important they need to be able to transport, supply and support them. They want to be able to project forces, not to be able to stop armored divisions.

Concerning the unemployment issue : indeed, army can (and do) train people with low qualifications in various technical fields, which can help them to find a job. At some point, here, it has been a policy to try to give the draftees some professional qualification. But basically, fighting unemployment isn’t exactly the job of the military.
It’s certainly more efficient and less costly to offer a real professional training to the unemployed than to offer them some minimal training while they’re in the army.

By the way, you refered to “learn to read” in your post, and indeed since all the male population was drafted, conscription pointed out that illiteracy (or semi-illiteracy) was a very real issue. And the military did try to learn them to read, but once again, army isn’t primary school.

Concerning people who benefit from being shouted at…I disagree, but I don’t want to enter in this debate.

The military exists for a reason. If its ability to perform its function is reduced by conscription, then conscription into the military is against the national interest, period.

However, you could justify a compulsory civilian/peace corps type of service. Benefits would include “character building”, low-cost services for the community, etc.

However, it’s a major infringement of the individual’s liberty.

I’m in favor of such a scheme if it’s voluntary or if it’s in return for something (eg as a way of repaying student loans). Otherwise, it sounds like the sort of thing the middle aged dream up in order to take revenge on people who have the nerve to be young. (I’m 41 on 11/29, btw, so I reserve the right to do a 180-degree change of mind on this issue in a week.)

I’m making an effort to put my personal feelings aside (as I’m roughly the right age and I certainly don’t want to be drafted), but I still think it’s a terrible idea.

OK, so some people come into the military as screwups and come out with their lives transformed. But some people come in as screwups and remain screwups. Some come in as perfectly normal people and come out permanently damaged (admittedly, mostly combat veterans, but not always). I’d really like to see some evidence – besides anecdotes – that the first possibility is more likely than any of the others.

Some kids respond well to strict discipline, others don’t, others REALLY don’t and do stupid, rebellious things that they wouldn’t have done in a more relaxed atmosphere. (I fell squarely into the last category, and it’s fair to say that if I had been drafted at eighteen, I would have received a dishonorable discharge within six months. Instead, I went to a liberal arts college where we were basically expected to take care of ourselves and eventually graduated magna cum laude, something nobody who knew me in my first two years of high school would have expected.)

In any case, as clairobscur has already said, the military isn’t a primary school, much less a psychotherapy clinic. Now, more than ever, the armed forces need people with specialized skills, or at least intelligent people who are capable of learning these skills; they don’t need a bunch of unemployed dropouts, and it is certainly not their responsibility to give these people something to do.

First, how I use the terms:

By “conscription”, any manning of the military through mandatory induction.
By “National Service”, a mandatory period of service to the State, usually military, but service in some vital civilian departments is acceptable alternative.
With the modifier “Universal” attached to either term, that EVERYONE HAS to perform it, with only extreme duress exemptions.

The post-1970s U.S. has enough of a population base plus the technological resources for a less labor-intensive military, so that in peacetime it can maintain a sufficient all-volunteer force (PROVIDED the government gives enough monetary incentives for recruits to choose this over civvie street, and to retain experienced staff. During the '94-'99 boom economy we couldn’t have dreamt of maintaining 1990 force levels w/o boosting salaries and bonuses WAY above what was done. The raw recruit today makes $1,005 a month.) The “astonishingly low casualty rate” in the Gulf is precisely because of this – the U.S. does NOT use massed waves of cannon fodder on foot. It uses a sophisticated force staffed by highly motivated people to direct maximum damage in the other fellow’s direction.

In any case, the mechanism of conscription during the Korea/1950s/Vietnam Era, and that planned for any future mobilization, is “selective” , not Universal. There were numerous workarounds and even if you did nothing you could luckily “draw a high number” and never get called up. and if you were, for instance, a recognized Religious Objector, you could be assigned alternate National Service.

I’m willing to bet that one reason true Universal Service was never used for the modern US forces, (the closest was WW2’s total war footing) is the aforementioned population. In relative peacetime only a few hundred thousand new entrants a year are required. A system that could absorb a couple of million 18-year-olds (or 21-year-olds, if you defer till college graduation) a year, even if for 3/4 of them it’s just a 6-month National Guard tour, would be unaffordable. After all, for every 10 of those raw conscripts you’re going to need about 3 experienced NCOs to mind them, with THEIR corresponding superiors (And they don’t grow on trees). Or else, you can end up with a huge Force of “paper” units made up of half-arsed-trained cannon fodder whose salaries you still have to pay until the day they get slaughtered or routed.
The points for/against that the OP describes are, ostensibly, from a source in which they’re being parodied. However there are some that can be worked with.

All the (a) thru (d) “pros” are, as it is, selling points of the professional military. THEY tell THE POTENTIAL RECRUIT that they will provide him a job, a skill, education assistance, etc.
The arguments against are also satirical, except that argument (a) is true – the military would much rather have someone who asked to be there and can thus be properly motivated.

My inclination would be to prefer the all-volunteer force, or in its place a truly Universal National Service, NOT necessarily military, with no work-arounds or exceptions. You could perform it through a year of painting inner city schools, or transporting poor rural elderly to medical care in the nearest town, or what have you. And be “drafted” into it if you haven’t voluntarily entered a qualifying program by a certain age (21?). Provide educational, loan or employment benefits upon satisfactory completion.

OTOH, there is one argument about mandatory National Service (military, not necessarily “Universal”) that I found somewhat seductive. I read it something like 4 years ago in a leftie publication, maybe Utne’s, heck if I can recall the cite. I reproduce the gist of it as I recall it for what it may add:

That as things stand right now, too many of the people who go into the military are either disadvantaged social/ethnic groups who need the money or the “way out of the ghetto”, or people who come from a family military tradition; while too many of the people going for the fast track of business, politics, academia, etc. do not even think about spending a day in uniform in their lives. This, the authors said, creates the risk of a society in which the people in charge of the economy, academia and civil government, and the people in the Services, become two distinct classes on the way to becoming castes, mutually looking down patronizingly at one another. They go on to say, having at least a part of the military be conscripted through NS would force a unifying link between the two groups. Have some people in the elite learn what the serviceman goes through before rah-rahing the economy into war, and infuse into the military some fresh ideas. And, who knows, maybe some highly talented person will decide AFTER trying it that he can contribute more to the world going from Seaman-to-Admiral than going from mail clerk to CEO.

It would require one key condition: that a truly blind draft lottery be in place, and that the luck of the draw be enforced absolutely. ZERO workarounds other than valid religious objection or extreme family duress – and those send you into civilian NS. No future Dan Quayles or Bill Clintons: Law/Medical School will just wait; or you finish it, but then your career WILL wait while you serve.

The idea of a zero workarounds draft just doesn’t work in practice. In the situation that JRDelirious was mentioning, the elites who want an academic career without spending a few years in the service first could always flee the country, or just get a fake ID and go to college here in the US. In the US today, where people with cetain technical skills are in such high demand, kids just aren’t going to put their careers on hold no matter what the government does.

I dont see how it is going to instill civic duty, or give the 18 year olds any sort of patriotism to be forced in to doing something you could have volunteered for. I’m sure mandatory military/civic duty would help a lot of people, but not the majority. Besides, to do a good job, and not screw off, these kids have to want to be there. And if they wanted to be there they could have volunteered in the first place.
peace,
JB

My father is in the Royal Navy, and works as a Recruitment Officer. His opinion on that matter is that those who don’t want to be there aren’t exactly the best candidates for the job. Heck, even most of those who WANT to join up aren’t suitable, and have to be turned down.

Although he does agree that military service could, in some cases, put certain people on a better path in life, he’s still against it. In his opinion, the reason our armed forces are amongst the best in the world is because the people who are there WANT to be there. If they were serving under duress, things would be quite different.

As for me, if military service was compulsory, I’d flat out refuse to do it. Throw me in prison, do what you like, I ain’t going. I’m the first to admit I’m not cut out for military life. And if there was ever a call-up due to war, my answer would be the same. I have no desire to act as cannon fodder on behalf of Queen and Country. The Queen can save her own ass as far as I’m concerned.

Different country, different politics, different culture, but still…

I was (and still am, occasionally) a soldier, and I was drafted. And you know what? I was a damn good soldier, too. I wasn’t a great soldier - I lack the mental and physical focus for Special Forces, and the leadership skills of an officer - but I was at least as good as any U.S. Marine or Airborne trooper. The thing is, if I hadn’t been drafted, there’s no way I would have volunteered for military service; I would have gone straight to college just like any other upper-middle-class kid. But instead, I waited three years, learned quite a lot about myself and my abilities, and then went on with the normal life of a young “Western” man. And I served with people just like me, guys who would never have served of their own free will, but served well; guys who would have been honor students or college jocks, but instead used their considerable skills in the service of their country.

Much has been said on how reluctant recruits make poor soldiers, but truth be told, how many 18-year-olds actually know what they want to do with their lives, or who they really are? Most of them go on to college or work because that’s what’s expected of them, not because they actually make a conscious decision to do so. if they knew all their lives that they were expected, at some point, to serve their country, then most of them would do so without much complaint, and do the best they possibly could.

Listen - I’m not saying that the U.S. should have a draft. I’m just saying that enlisted troops are in no way inferior to volunteers. The boys who stormed Normandy were draftees, as were those who took Iwo Jima. Are you saying that the United States has ever, before or since, produced better troops?

A couple years in a disciplined environment does wonders for people. I personally had a media and popular culture ingrained perception of the military as brain-washed automatons with little imagination and even less brains.

Fortunately for US, that is far from the case. In fact, the most colorful and unique individuals I’ve ever had the pleasure to know were military careerists, and while I can’t say I loved the military, I joined twice, having to leave the service the second time due to health problems with my father. As far as the ‘brain-washed’ is concerned, my revolving door experience with the military has led me to believe it is the civilians who are largely brain-washed and apathetic, not the other way around.

The military is a reflection of society and must adjust (somewhat) to that reality. Still, teaching our young people the values of self-discipline, integrity, and taking responsibility for their actions is never a bad thing. It may be a cliche, but many young people in the US today only have dim understanding of personal ethics and are very quick to place blame anywhere but where it squarely lays.

This is a fairly ignorent statement on so many levels I don’t know where to begin:

  1. Most of my friends who were in the military learned skills like discipline and leadership which are applicable in civilian life. It is also possible to learn an occupation in the military as well.

  2. Soldiers do not give their life defending coordinates on a map. They defend the ideals their country represent.

  3. American soldiers are risking their lives right now so you can maintain your lifestyle of sitting on your couch eating Dorittos and playing Playstation without having to worry about crazy people crashing airplanes into your town.

It must be nice to never have to pick a side and fight for it. Personally I think pacifists generally are:

  1. People who are afraid of any conflict whatsoever (read pussies)

  2. People who are so self-righteous and self-centered that they think they are above any conflict

  3. annoying

As for the OP:

Mass peacetime concription for the military and civil service is a bad idea for a country as large as the US. Simple reason is that it is a drain on the economy. You are taking millions of people away from productive careers and placing them in a job they probably have no interest in. Taxes will have to be raised to pay for them. So not only does the increased taxes burden the economy, the workforce is less productive because people aren’t doing what they are good at.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but i have to sharpen one minor point: not every soldier fights for ideals. Quite often they’ll fight to protect the lives of their families and friends, as well as their freedom - not freedom in an abstract sense, but rather in a more immediate, physical and personal sense.

Fighting for ideals is one thing. Fighting so your family won’t be driven from its home, your sister raped, your brother enslaved and your parents killed is something else.

I would agree. Prior to 9/11, I think war was viewed as a sort of abstract political tool applied in far away countries. I think that many Americans now know what war is really about: an agressor trying to destroy (both physically and ideologically) your way of life.

Ummm. Cite? I never really thought of Ghandi as a “pussy” before. In fact in many ways his pacifism got him into more trouble. And it freed his country, too.

A humble, gentle man, centred on others, not himself. He defeated everything the military could throw at him, not despite but because he never lifted a finger.

Sorry. Gandhi.

That’s because Ghandi didn’t flee to Canada like a little bitch.

I am not an expert on Ghandi, but I’m pretty sure he did not defeat the British military. He defeated them by using civil disobedience to exercise political force.

Ghandis strategy was effective because the British are relatively reasonable and civilized. Such a ‘pacifist’ strategy would not be effective against an adversary like the Nazis or Stalin who would have no qualms about rounding up Ghandi and all his supporters and shooting them.