Well I’m sure there are some really nice skinheads out there who don’t have anything to do with the loudmouth racist types, but I doubt they’d be surprised if most people who heard the word ‘skinhead’ thought ‘racist’.
I hear the word ‘feminist’, it sounds exactly like ‘sexist.’
The same ‘tired old bullshit’ refers to the same attitude, the same statements, the same mindless repetition of the same whiny mantra that ‘Not all feminists are like that’ without offering up even one example of a moderate, non-sexist feminist organization that I’ve encountered everywhere else, including Ms.
This thread, and especially margin has been a demonstration of why I dislike feminism. Those self-titled feminists who claim to want to discuss something logically are completely incapable of reading a cite, preferring instead to ignore it and then just repeat themselves. It’d be nice if one of you actually debunked a cite, or provided a counter cite of your own, but simply saying ‘No you’re wrong.’ over and over again is not going to make you right.
You are, however, serving as excellent evidence of the everything that I’ve always been disgusted with in feminism, and further convincing me that I reached the right conclusion about what a dishonest, intellectually void, sexist dogma the ‘feminist movement’ is.
Uh, catsix, sweetie? Who gives a shit what you think? Seriously? Andy’s never provided a cite. Period. You think that’s just fine and dandy because it suits your anti-feminist Camille Paglia agenda. You claim you had a bad experience with one college professor. You also claimed that the feminists at the other boards were mean and nasty to you, but it turns out you lied when you agreed to their terms, and when you got found out, you got booted.
I’m still waiting for my cite. And you’re still not reading one god damned thing anybody’s said on this thread, apparently. I just love the way you and Andy have been whining about anti-male bashing feminists, and then when they’re provided, you shrug them off and ignore them.
Whatever, babe. Why don’t you skip through some wildflowers with Christina Hoff-Summers, Camille Paglia, and all those other sell-outs who happily pander to sexists so they can get ahead. Gee, until Hoff-Summers and Paglia started bashing feminists they were unknown.
Either way, you’ve done nothing but ignore Andy’s ludicrous ‘no-cite’ position since you came here. Who cares what you have to say about feminism? You’re one of the people who believes in the ‘feminazi’ label. Your antics and Andy’s have pretty clearly proven that ‘feminazi’ isn’t about the subject so labelled, it’s about the person doing the labelling.
Thanks for being so blatant about it, though.
margin, I’ll just point out that I went over to the Ms. Boards at the same time catsix did – and while there were some decent people over there (especially in other threads), there sure were some fucking tools, too. They jumped on both of us in a completely inappropriate manner and squelched any chance of honest dialogue.
Were that one of my primary experiences with feminists, I’d be pretty disgusted with them, too. Fortunately, I’ve spent my life around wonderful women and men who consider themselves feminist, and I know personally many folks for whom their own feminism is simply their desire for men and women to have equal opportunities and choices.
Oh, I’ve had my share of bad experiences with the Ms. Boards, too. But catsix rather misrepresented her time there, and she hasn’t read a bloody thing that anyone who disagrees with her has said here. Nor does she recognize that she’s enforcing different rules for Andy and the people who disagree with him. Nor did she mention that she had to agree to certain terms to post on that board, and that by agreeing to them she falsely represented herself. I have to be unfront and say that I’d like to see for myself the difficulties you encountered.
I mean, as a feminist, I frequently find myself arguing that no, men aren’t hormonally crazed and yes, they can control themselves. It’s not feminists making those arguments, by the way: it’s the ‘biology-is-destiny’ people, who are still trying to find a hormonal excuse for rape.
Catsix rejected all the quotes from the moderate feminists to focus on the same ones Andy did; the thirty-year-old stuff from Robin Morgan and so on. I mean, if Andy was the only anti-feminist I ever met, and I used his methods, I’d sound just like what he says feminists sound like. Maybe Robin Morgan knows his dad! /rim shot
The whole point of this discussion has been Andy claiming that feminists are man-hating nutjobs, then refusing to provide evidence for that statement, and then lashing out with insults and so on when he gets cornered. Yet again I quoted his comments above. That’s the sixth or seventh time. He has yet to either retract those statements or back them up. What he does do is whip out insults.
I’d draw a line, too, between college feminists and women of my class. I’d call myself blue-collar, so I just don’t have a lot of patience with theory. I’m in the Army; I’m around guys. I know when some guy is being sexist and trying to hide it, when he’s just trying to yank my chain, or when he’s my buddy just teasing me. Without feminism, I wouldn’t have male ‘girlfriends’ if you know what I mean, and I’d miss that tremendously. I’ve been sleeping in tents with guys for twelve years, and the big issue is snoring. I want practical solutions. It’s interesting that catsix represents the other side of the college feminist coin; the rigidly anti-feminist college student, who has a few bad experiences and then eagerly tars the movement with the same brush. She’s just as fervid about it as the women she decries. Same environment; different end of the spectrum. But I’ve noticed that the college feminists seem to mellow. The anti-feminists seem to go on and try and make a career out of it. There’s an awful lot of money to be made in bashing feminists, evidently.
I knew I was feminist when I was twelve or so. I finally got told one too many times that there was something I couldn’t do because I wasn’t a girl. Turns out girls had never done it, so how was it possible to state girls couldn’t do it? And it was my father more than my mother who egged me on. The point is, I started reading feminist books at the time and they resonated for me. I didn’t become a feminist and then start retroactively deciding that events from my life fit the pattern: the patterns of my life led to it, and there I discovered that I wasn’t alone. Andy and his ilk refuse to believe that there are anything but man-hating feminists. If every guy I met was like Andy, there’d be a hell of a lot more Andrea Dworkins.
I’m now leaning toward the theory that he’s a troll. It’s fun taking the word ‘feminist’ out of his posts, and putting in "African Americans’ or “Jews” and seeing what happens. I just find it impossible to believe that anybody can reason the way he does and function in the real world.
margin, as to the difficulties I encountered at Ms.:
SOmeone linked to a thread there whose central thesis was that all orgasms were male-dominated, and that a feminist couldn’t have an orgasm free from patriarchy. I posted in the thread about my ex-girlfriend who was lesbian and who had her first orgasm with a woman, and suggested that her experience was patriarchy-free; the response I got to what I thought was a completely inoffensive post was rolled eyes and insults, nothing addressing what I’d said at all. I’ve never been so infuriated by an online experience.
Andy is a tool, and he’s the worst kind of tool: he tries to bury his opponents in irrelevant verbosity. I don’t understand why you keep arguing with him, but hey – to each her own.
catsix, at least, strikes me as honest. I disagree with her, but my disagreements I think are mostly about semantics. From where I stand, she looks completely feminist, and her claims that she’s not feminist sound like someone who believes that Jesus is God’s only son, come to save mankind, who died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected, but who denies being Christian because of assholes like Jim Bakker. In other words, she looks like a feminist to me, talks like a feminist, walks like a feminist – the only thing that keeps me from calling her a feminist is her resolute rejection of the label. Hey, to each her own.
But Andy’s a tool. Let him have the last word, and forget about him.
Oh, God, don’t get me started about them there. Somebody posted a thread about women in the military asking what their experiences were. I posted about mine, and somebody responded by saying that all women get harassed in the military. For me, that’s not been true at all: I pointed out that I’d really gotten harassed in the classic sense only once, and I was instantly sandbagged by feminists who claimed that I had ‘concealed’ it or something. There was speculation as to what I was suppressing, what I was denying, and even after I asked people to stop----they were talking about specific body parts----they didn’t do so. It degenerated into an all-out flame war, and I really haven’t been back in any substantial way. However, I do recognize that those people there are a subset of feminists, and not the norm. Catsix does not make such a concession, and she ignores it when Andy acts like a tool. I think everybody has a duty to not accept bigotry, and catsix seemed really eager to blacken the name of all feminists with the words and actions of a few. I’m not going to do that to men, for example, so I’ll be damned if I stand by while she does it to other women while pandering to a sexist scumbag.
On that note, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I wonder if that’s a concept Andy’s ever heard of? It just seems that his concepts of feminism, fiction, and debate all come from some bizarro world.
That’s fine, margin. I’ve considered starting another thread (“What do you mean by ‘feminism’?”) but I’m afraid Andy would come in and fling poo all over it; as it is, I’ve just been reading and limiting my responses in this thread.
I say go for it. Call him out. He’s still avoiding cites. It would be a very interesting discussion, if you put it some place other than the pit, which should limit his deceptive tactics.
Margin, did you read the same cafe society thread I read? I didn’t exactly see Andy restricting himself to honest, responsible debate there.
I’m interested in the discussion, but not with Andy. Not, anyways, until he apologizes for shitting all over me and other people in that other thread and shows that he’s reformed his conversational style. And believe me, I ain’t holding my breath for that one.
No, I’m interested in discussing the issue with other people, especially given catsix’s response to feminism – one that’s novel to me. I mean, I’ve met anti-feminist women, sure, but I wouldn’t count catsix among their number; I’ve never before encountered someone that came across so strongly feminist to me that so stridently rejected calling herself feminist, and that’s what I think is interesting, not Andy’s shrill idiocy.
Welcome to the boards, Chrissy! It’s really, really bad form to have your first post be advertising your own website, especially when that site is tangentially if at all related to the ongoing conversation. You may want to ask a mod to delete that advertisement from the post; definitely you’ll want to have your next few posts not plug your site.
I should clarify that I’m not taking a side, I just think it’s unbelievably obvious that this is mostly a fight about definitions, and not about any actual issues.
Well, once again, and I’ve asked this question before, neither you nor andy answered it.
Is it your contention, that unless a “normal” feminist is a part of, or has started an “organization” of some sort, that she/they “can’t” be considered as evidence of feminists who do NOT buy into the “NOW/Morgan/Dworkin” beliefs?
Otherwise, I HAVE provided many examples of women who are just that, moderate feminists.
Again, a class of 30 women, just this semester, ranging in age from supremely young college (barely 19) to my age (44 quickly coming up on 45, which IS by the way, the age where I was just coming of age during some of the early stages of feminism).
Not one was an example of the extremists you quote. You and andy quote about 5 authors/NOW leader types, give or take 3.
So that’s 30 of my students (of all ages and walks of life) as opposed to your 8 or so nutsos. Just from this real life example, “regular” normal feminists are in the lead percentage wise.
There is another friend of mine, about 10 years older than I am who WAS in the “frontlines” so to speak, of the feminist movement. She was a window decorator, and fought a great deal of discriminiation during her career.
She considers herself a feminist, is she in any organizations? No. Other than when she was working and fought her OWN battles.
But her number one goal/assessment of herself is as a courtesan. That is how she does in life, as that. She conducts herself in relationships with “her” men, as such.
Not very close to you and andy’s descriptions.
But then, I don’t know exactly what it is that you two are looking for, since you didn’t say. That is, you didn’t answer whether or women YOU two would consider “evidence” of normal moderate feminists could just be so in normal everyday life, or if, in order to prove to YOU their moderation and normal status, they had to belong to, or have started a counter feminazi orgnazation.
Funny that you should say that, as YOUR defense in a question of "Morgan/dworkin/NOW’ does NOT equal the term feminist is to provide exactly the same cites that you’ve provided before.
Secondly, no one has protested or argued that THOSE women weren’t nutcases with bad ideas. We’ve AGREED with you that they were.
Third, I haven’t seen margin say she was a feminist. And I certainly have NOT said “I’m a feminist”.
What I SAID was, (and you choose to keep ignoring this) was that by the technical, current dictionary meaning, I fit that definition, so by THOSE criteria, I am. Just as are all women who fit that definition, until they change it.
They being the folks that print dictionaries. The word still DOES mean what it’s stated to mean.
YES there are those who’ve bastardized it for their own use.
And again, this does NOT mean that the original feminists suddenly believe the NOW idiots. Nor does it mean that those just going about everyday life, living as an equal (the definition again) have made any conscious thought or effort toward “being” a feminist.
They are, by definition. You can’t seem to wrap your mind around that I am discussing etymology here.
The study of the meanings and development of words. You haven’t proven that this word has by majority use, become that of what NOW is trying to make it.
And again, from the dictionary, (the current 2003 one), here is what the word feminism means:
feminism
n 1: a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women 2: the movement aimed at equal rights for women [syn:
IF, as you say, it’s already a done deal, and the NOW people have made this so, then why hasn’t the dictionary changed it? Why doesn’t everyone in the country know that it has now passed into “common usage”?
Yes, and I stated this pages ago, SOME people use it for that purpose. Not all, and it has not yet been shown that the “some” make up a majority. Otherwise, why as you stated earlier normally takes place, hasn’t the dictionary changed the definition?
Spoken like someone who has no idea regarding the actual “feminist Movement” as opposed to those who claim to be feminists, and someone who takes their knowledge solely from the news, and from the elements of that with which she REALLY has the argument. The dworkin types.
And again, you’ll get no argument with me there. Don’t you think that they disgust other women as well?
This is another discussion, but I don’t think that dishonest or intellectually void, is an accurate desription of these people. It doesn’t take lack of intelligence to have a nutso idea (think bin laden). And I don’t think that they’re being dishonest either. I think that they really believe in what they’re saying and doing. I DO think that they’re wrong and incorrect in their beliefs though, and that’s a different thing.
A person can be intelligent and honest and disagree with another of equal intelligence and honesty. Just because their ideas are bad ones, unfair to many people still doesn’t mean that they’re less intelligent or honest.
And thank GOD most of us “normal” feminists and women don’t think that way huh? Otherwise, their bad ideas (man-free society) could come to fruition. But they’re not, they’re nowhere close.
I don’t know too many women who think that getting rid of men is even remotely a good thing. And you’d be hardpressed to find any of them willing to go back to the days of being second class citizens.
As to the feminist fighting for equality doesn’t equal someone who’s fighting for their rights based on a genetic basis is a “dishonest” comparison? That’s absolutely the silliest argument I’ve ever heard.
How is women wanting to 'being equal to men" less valid a fight than “being equal to white” is for blacks?
Again, I’m talking about feminism in its ORIGINAL meaning, which is “equality”. Period.
I’m not in ANY way supporting or defending what a daft organization like NOW thinks is “their” definition of it.
Well, that’s what I’ve been Trying to get across. But I’m losing. Not that I really care, they’re helping me out here!
They seem to keep taking my descriptions of the definitions as announcements that I’m on (GASP) “their” those horrible horrible Morganites’ side.
It’s a very distracting thread though, I’m sorry to be boring you, I know there is more world worthy and cerebral subjects to be discussed.
But they’re doing an excellent job of keeping my mind of personal stuff that I’d REALLY like to not think about. (like my upcoming move across the @#$#@@country etc :D).
Thanks for the welcome Daniel!
I’ve been enjoying following (well, mainly eavesdropping on) this discussion. Sorry bout the bad form- Im a newbie at all this
I agree that this whole arguement is one of definition- the problems with using the word “feminist”: a problem that the post-prefix doesn’t entirely solve but tries to point to.
And for anyone to cite the views of Andrea Dworkin et al. as standing for the ideas of a dynamic contemporary movement of people concerned with social equality is outdated by a generation. - like stating that 80’s rockers Poison represent contemporary issues in popoular music.
I’m amazed at all the NOW bashing as the organization has done much politically etc. to get us where we are today…
A feminazi is someone who scares the pants off of Rush and his buddies because s/he threatens their status in the patriarchal system.
Wow, margin, I see you’ve completely run out of ability to have an honest discussion and have now had to resort to the ever-intelligent ‘Who cares what you think, sweetie?’ method of debate.
I’m pretty sure they covered that in the Communications and Rhetoric department when I was in college under ‘Ways not to debate with someone if you wish to appear as having an IQ higher than that of lettuce.’
I wish I could say your position was unique among feminists I’ve interacted with in my life, but it’s not.
Is this the part where I thank you for pointing out so clearly that you haven’t got a leg to stand on, thus you throw out ad hominems between your ‘Nobody cares what you think’ choruses?
I have been quite honest about my experience there. Disagreement with the MacKinnon/Dworkin/Atkinson party line and a self-admitted interest in BDSM got me called a misogynist man posing as a woman and eventually banned for it.
I have, somewhat unfortunately, read every line. I should bill you for the time I’ve spent reading your posts.
Andy provided cites, which you have not debunked. When your side (not you, specifically since you have never provided a cite) put up quotes, I debunked them by pointing out contradictory behavior by those very same “feminists”.
He has backed them up. You have not refuted any of his cites. Therefore he does not owe a retraction.
Fifteen years of unmitigated bad experiences, and just this year I’ve added you to the list.
Then you should use the ‘Report This Post’ button.
And I thank you for not applying such a vile label to me, although I am disappointed that you think it fits.
People like those at Ms. and like yourself are the sum of my fifteen or so years experience with feminists. Andy has yet to act like a tool, but if he does, he won’t get a pass from me.
I am anti-feminist. I am opposed to the entire political movement that is called feminism, but especially opposed to radical feminism.
I don’t believe without proof that those people exist. When you prove they do, we’ll start talking about whether or not there are more of them than there are Dworkinites.
Since you haven’t debunked any of them, there’s no reason they are not still withstanding.
The dictionary changes to reflect the vernacular usage. That it has not been changed yet does not indicate that the working definition of feminist has not changed. Saying it in all caps won’t help you.
You are discussing your opinion, not facts. How convenient for you to label the masses as ‘feminist’ so that you can say their existence supports your point. How many years after the word ‘gay’ had been widely used to refer to homosexuality did the editors of dictionaries change that definition?
I thought you said you never called yourself a feminist?
That’s not what this discussion is about. This discussion started as a discussion of what the word ‘feminazi’ means to the average person on the street and has evolved into a discussion of whether ‘feminist’ and ‘feminism’ conjure up the same connotation.
Whether on their side or not, you certainly don’t differ in debating style.
What, like whether you subscribe to the dictionary definition of patriarchy or not?
A more honest analogy would be to say that illustrations from Poison, Quiet Riot, Slaughter, Scorpion, Bon Jovi, Cinderella, Warrant, et al are given as examples of what the ‘Hair Metal’ movement of the 1980s was.
Widely taught, respected, published feminists in leadership roles of feminist institutions, organizations and university programs are representative of the feminist political movement in the same way that the prominent ‘Hair Bands’ of the 80s were representative of ‘Hair Metal’.
Oh, he has? You mean, where he claimed fiction that didn’t exist and that he hadn’t read was a cite? That?
quote:
Catsix, demonstrating a tragic lack of reality:
Oh, baby, stop. You’re just embarrassing yourself now. Seriously. You’re doing my job for me. You’re starting to venture into Ann Coulter territory here. Really. It’s pathetic. Stop now. It would be amusing if you weren’t so serious about it.
Not that I really care, they’re helping me out here!