Silly me. I always thought feminism was the quaint idea of civil rights for women, so I could apply for a job and not be told, “we don’t hire women for that.” But I now see it’s all about penis sex.
Never has rhetoric swayed me so, Andy. I’m going out today to explore the world of dykery and gun ownership, and whatever it takes to protect me from those nasty phalluses. 'Cause, that’s what feminism’s all about. I see that now. Thanks for the inspiration.
So Andy quotes some very prominent and well known feminists espousing views that are blatantly anti-male, and your answer to that is to get snarky with Andy because you think Andy mischaracterized feminism?
Maybe you ought to raise your beef with Andrea Dworkin and Robin Morgan.
I don’t think that Andrea Dworkin and Robin Morgan even fit Webster’s definition of feminist – which speaks of equality of the sexes, not just women as I think I originally stated.
What a waste.
I do understand why their work is explored in feminist studies though – just as the Communist Manifesto is in economics or social sciency and Mein Kamph is in history classes. University life is about exploring opposing ideas, not about indoctrination. (At least, if it’s a good school.)
Annie, typically you cite what feminism claims to be rather than what it really is.
Do you think feminism is about the equal right to get a job? Then why does feminism advocate affirmative action to discriminate against men? Or perhaps you’re fine with anti-male discrimination?
Do you think feminism advocates civil rights? Well, there are so many areas in which feminism opposes the rights of men that I doubt I could list them all, but for starters:
[ul]
[li]Opposes men’s rights to due process by insisting that men ought to be fired solely on a woman’s claim that he harassed her.[/li][li]Opposes fathers’ rights to visitation and custody.[/li][li]Opposes men’s rights to defend themselves against rape accusations via the establishment of so-called “rape shield laws” that rule out evidence contradicting the accusation.[/li][li]Opposes free speech by advocating various speech codes that apply to men but not to women.[/li][li]Opposes equality under the law by advocating programs that would exclude men from their benefits.[/li][li]Opposes men’s equal rights to higher education via affirmative action, quotas, women-only scholarships, etc., with men now becoming the minority on campus.[/li][li]Opposes the idea that women’s lives and men’s lives are of equal worth.[/li][li]Opposes equality under the law by advocating laws that protect women but not men or give women a far higher level of protection than men.[/li][/ul]
As for keeping phalluses away from you, Annie, don’t worry too much about it. I’m sure you are perfectly safe in that regard, hon.
No, I think Annie getting snarky with Andy because of quotes like this:
A little over the top, no?
Yes, they are more than a little over the top.
For your information, this is the established fact. I’m not making up anything here. Feminist fiction has long been rife with themes of female-only paradise or female-run utopias, and feminist philosophy is full of dremy scenarios of how good the world would be if either men disappeared or women ran everything. If you are blaming me for bringing it up, well, denial is a very hard thing to break.
As for the Amazon mascot, I know what you’re going to say: it’s just a symbol of strong, independent women. But given the objections that feminists have lodged against “rapacious” team mascots like pirates, I wonder how they would react if any group of men adopted a mascot symbolic of killing female babies. Bottom line is that the idea of Amazons killing their male babies was not enoug to put feminists off – because only violence against women is wrong, I guess.
Again, you would do better to cite examples of feminists who oppose man-bashing rather than just bash me for citing the plague of those who advocate it.
Then again, such feminists are pretty scarce, so you have to resort to attacking me for bringing it up.
Zoe, you keep citing the abstract definition of feminism rather than what it advocates in real life. It’s a pretty weak defense, because we all know that if you ask people what feminism is about these days, a large number will think of negative things like anti-male extremism and looniness.
If a professer had students read long sections of “Mein Kampf” and presented no opposing view, sane people would object. However, Women’s Studies courses present the anti-male view without rebuttal from the non-feminist view.
Zoe, I’m sure you are fine with this because of your history of welcoming man-bashing and gender bigotry to the board and your refusal to make even the slightess protest against it.
As for colleges exploring opposing ideas, it is today a myth. Faculties self-identify themselves overwhelmingly as liberal and Democrats, and those who don’t usually are the ones even farther to the left. There is no such thing as diversity when the leftists are in charge.
Hi, I’m Annie. I’m a feminist who opposes man bashing. I believe you met Zoe earlier. She was the one who was saying feminism’s dictionary definition is equality of the sexes. There’s bunches of us around-people who think women are equal to men, and likewise believe men are equal to women. We are people who think our genders are part of our nature, not the sum total of it. We’d like to not have our civil rights affected by what our genitals look like. We like to have sex with willing participants of our own choosing, and don’t think people who choose someone of their own gender to have sex with should be dicriminated against for that choice. After that, it’s a pretty wide spectrum of belief and political opinion. Feminists are the women and men in your life.
Although I’m not thrilled with the sex-specific nature of the word ‘feminism’. I prefer ‘gender equitist’, but that just gets me funny looks at dinner parties:confused:
Hi, I’m Annie. I’m a feminist who opposes man bashing. I believe you met Zoe earlier. She was the one who was saying feminism’s dictionary definition is equality of the sexes. There’s bunches of us around-people who think women are equal to men, and likewise believe men are equal to women. We are people who think our genders are part of our nature, not the sum total of it. We’d like to not have our civil rights affected by what our genitals look like. We like to have sex with willing participants of our own choosing, and don’t think people who choose someone of their own gender to have sex with should be discriminated against for that choice. After that, it’s a pretty wide spectrum of belief and political opinion. Feminists are the women and men in your life. I can’t speak to the lunatic fringe of feminism, because they don’t speak for me,but I suggest you do not inflate their importance.
Although I’m not thrilled with the sex-specific nature of the word ‘feminism’. I prefer ‘gender equitist’, but that just gets me funny looks at dinner parties:confused:
Andy, I feel bad for you if you really believe that
If you really feel I’m attacking you, I want to say that’s not my intention. But I honestly feel that you are pushing the fringe element of feminism front and center. To me it’s like quoting nothing but Malcolm X, The Black Panthers, the Weathermen or J. Edgar and saying that’s what the civil rights movement was about. Indulging in general statements like this are not any different than saying Republican are all evil, heartless, godless, money-grubbing racists or Democrates are all evil, brainless, godless, fiscally irresponsible traitors. I don’t believe in man-bashing. My feminist friends don’t believe in man-bashing. I consider myself a feminist and a liberal. The demonization of those two terms over the last decade is really sad. All I can try and work toward restoring what I consider to be the real meanings. This article this article demonstrates what I really believe most people think of feminism/the women’s movement. Are there nutjobs in the women’s movement? Why, yes, I do believe there are! Are there nutjobs in the men’s movement. Heavens, again I do believe there are? Let’s see…how about Angry Harry who appears to believe like you that feminists are opposed to a variety of men’s rights but just don’t state it as eloquently as you. However, when they explain how sexism is a good thing or that women don’t really need all that education to be good mothers, I was under the assumption that you didn’t agree with them. Because they are fringe-dwellers. But a fair number of what I would call middle of the road men’s right’s site link to them and don’t say, “Ooh, here are some nutjobs!” Angry Harry says, among other equally delightful things:
but this is my favority from Henry:
There is lot’s of stuff associated with men’s rights out there that I think a reasonable person would take with a grain of salt. I think the women’s movement deserves the same consideration.
Feminism is a philosophical concept, and as such, only has abstract definitions. It means precisely what the majority of people say it means. And in my experience, most people believe feminism to mean “gender equality.” Sure, you’ve found lots of absurd and offensive quotes from feminists, but you have failed to show that these attitudes are prevalent among feminists. In my life, I have never met a woman who did not identify as a feminist, and I have never met a woman who espoused any of the view-points you claim are representative of feminism as a whole.
Incidentally, you keep throwing out these accusations about how Zoe reacts to man-bashers on these boards. To what, precisely, are you refering?
I can’t get the quote function to work, so pardon the c&p:
KAndre said: “If you really feel I’m attacking you, I want to say that’s not my intention. But I honestly feel that you are pushing the fringe element of feminism front and center. To me it’s like quoting nothing but Malcolm X, The Black Panthers, the Weathermen or J. Edgar and saying that’s what the civil rights movement was about. Indulging in general statements like this are not any different than saying Republican are all evil, heartless, godless, money-grubbing racists or Democrates are all evil, brainless, godless, fiscally irresponsible traitors. I don’t believe in man-bashing. My feminist friends don’t believe in man-bashing. I consider myself a feminist and a liberal. The demonization of those two terms over the last decade is really sad. All I can try and work toward restoring what I consider to be the real meanings.”
Yup. Thanks for saying it better than I.
And to round off the above comments, it’s worth pointing out that “feminism” doesn’t “claim to be” anything. It’s an abstract concept; it has no voice of its own. People who identify themselves as feminists say various things, some of which are radical, inflammatory and offensive to quite a lot of people of both genders, and some of which say things which are, on the face of things, quite reasonable. Which ones are which depends entirely on where you stand.
I used to march in ERA marches in the '70’s, and as far as I can recall no woman ever tried to castrate me or resented my being there. (Of course, this may have been because I was nine at the time.)
I can tell you from experience that those over at Ms. Magazine don’t consider people who advocate treating the genders equally to be a feminist.
I expressed that view in that arena, and I was branded an imposter, a closet male, and a misogynist. I was also told very certainly I didn’t have the right to call myself a feminist for merely believing that men and women should be treated equally under the law.
You may want feminism to be about equality, but lately, it isn’t.
I think that if you asked the “woman on the street” what she thought feminism was, you’d probably get the simple notion of equity.
But in the colleges, you’ll find that the notion of feminism carries alot more baggage, and there is alot of silly man-bashing going on there. My friend Jay took a “Women and the Law” course as a 3L, and was told explicitly by the professor that he and the other male student would not be called on, and were encouraged not to voice their opinions on the subject, because that would give them a feeling of what it’s like to be “marginalized”. :rolleyes: IIRC, another poster here on SDMB had a similiar experience as a male doing some women’s studies at the graduate level, and created a website documenting his difficulties. When I meet a woman who says she isn’t a feminist, this is what she thinks feminism is from having been exposed to it in college, and wants to distance herself from what she thinks is a radical and hostile philosophy.
What popular culture thinks of feminism and what academia thinks of it are widely divergent concepts. Even among the academic model of feminism, there’s your post-modern feminists, your libertarian feminists, your socialist feminists, feminists who deny the entire notion of gender, and feminists who are radically misandrous in any number of ways. The concept seems to range from positive, to benign, to malevolent depending on the particular flavor. Thus it’s tough to really make any assumptions about someone’s beliefs when they only tell you they’re a “feminist.”
Then I’ll stamp my little feet and pout until it is!
Er, answering catsix.
catsix: I can tell you from experience that those over at Ms. Magazine don’t consider people who advocate treating the genders equally to be a feminist.
[/quote]
Could you be specific about which member of the editorial staff has provided you with such a negative experience and impression? What was said specifically? Gee, even Gloria got married. 
I don’t even know any man-haters personally. I’m aware that some exist, but the people in my life are a mixture of men and women who respect and support each other.
One of the feminists that I’ve been closest to was my first husband. You can hardly call him a man-hater. We have remained the best of friends.
My husband now also believes in gender equality as do his sons. I’ve never had a cross word with my son-in-law of six years. My grandson thinks I’m cool. I still have friendships with former students including one male who was in my class over 25 years ago.
I try to greet anyone I see who has a low post count and usually make it a point not to be negative in my first words to a new user.
I am a member and supporter of peaceful organizations such as World Vision and Amnesty International.
I think that if any reasonable person looks back over the exchanges in this thread, she or he won’t have to be told which person spews hatred.
I remember reading a friend’s copy of Spare Rib some years back. It included a charming little short story in which a mother was soothing her daughter to sleep with an account of the “bad creatures” that there used to be and all the evils they did and how it was found necessary to “disappear” the bad creatures and there was no need to worry because there weren’t any of them alive any more. High on the list of the BCs’ faults was their possession of external genitals and their habit of sometimes even touching them publicly. :rolleyes:
Of course, the story may not be typical of Spare Rib’s editorial policy and the mag itself may not have been representative of feminist attitudes. And they may even have taken sugar with their porridge.
On a related note, you can read all about the “lesbian mafia” at lesbianstudies.com. WARNING: It is the lesbian equivalent of “God Hates Fags.”