Do you understand the concept of trying to avoid things that start inter-board wars? I already told you there’s a very good reason I wasn’t being more specific, and it’s because I don’t want to be responsible for a ‘board war’.
I’ve already told you exactly what I said there, so what purpose would posting links have other than stirring up a hornet’s nest of problems? It’s really not a good idea, and when a problem starts because you had to go digging despite the fact that I stated over and over again a very good reason for not providing those specifics, I don’t want it blamed on me. I tried to avoid a mess by not posting links.
No, but the moderators are. And they spoke quite freely on behalf of their employer.
When did you become a moderator here? And when did you become a mind reader?
You have no place in speaking about whether I was ‘lucky’ not to be banned here, nor in what I’m proud of.
Yeah, and that’s why I was as unspecific as possible despite the fact that margin continued to beg me for more details and links and mentioned the name of the place as an example, margin went digging and decided to offer the same links I didn’t want to put up because I don’t want a fucking war.
Nice effort to run me out of this thread by throwing about the ‘troll’ word and attempting to get the attention of the moderators of this board. I made the mistake of thinking I could go over there and post my actual real thoughts on gender equality, and my experiences in a field where most of my colleagues are men and how I’ve been treated. I was not the poster who linked back to this board, and had no interest then or now in a war.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by catsix *
**I see that the feminists in this thread are going to be just like the feminists on a certain other messageboard and ignore the cites and information staring them in the face, the cites that Andy and I and others have provided showing that the feminists whose names are bandied about on the news and in women’s studies classes every day (where the hell do you people think I heard the names Andrea Dworkin, Robin Morgan, Gloria Steinem, Germain Greer, Susan Brownmiller, etc for the first time anyway? From the god damn tv news and my feminist college professors who spouted the tripe that came from those anti-male bigots as if it were fucking gospel) Feminists don’t seem to want to participate in fair debate regarding the positions that the political movement of feminism actually holds because they know that if their leaders were looked at objectively, they’d come off as misandrist hate-mongers. And so instead we have this typical dishonesty, trying to patronize the opponent (by demeaning them with child names like ‘sweetie’), repeatedly ignoring the facts presented to them, and bleating that constant wail 'but feminism isn’t monolithic, so you can’t criticize it. **The last time I got that argument, at that other board, I responded by saying that if feminism’s not monolithic, that means I can be for 100% equal treatment under the law and be a feminist. Instead I was told I had no right to define what feminism was, called a misogynist, and eventually banned because I was supposedly a man in disguise. **
[quote]
If the word “feminist” means what the concept says it means then just about every woman in the free world is a feminist.
That is, that we believe we should be treated equally. Period.
I am defining myself as a feminist, NOT because I believe the psychotic man-bashing rantings of the few so-called “leaders” of some woman’s organizations, but because that is what the definition of the concept of feminism IS. (sorry, lovely grammar, not, also, I have a brand new puppy careening around my computer room chewing, getting his neck looped around the mouse cable and dragging it off of the keyboard tray, and generally driving my adult dog nuts :D).
I think that this is what margin is trying to say too.
FTR, I take great offense at so-called feminists who try to use being a woman to “get one over on” men. Having worked in male dominated fields most of my adult working life (so far), it angers me when they try to be “equal” but too “pansy” to do the actual work, and then cry “chauvinist” when they get fired or whatever.
I also don’t appreciate them (certain troll bitches from hell) using the fact that they are a woman to mean that they’re some helpless hothouse rose that must be cared for for life, because they let some guy put a ring on their finger.
In my NOT so humble opinion? Guys, men, whatever, are good for one thing. Love, and companionship.
NOT “taking care of you,” NOT giving you children because your biological clock is ticking, not stepping in where daddy left off.
And CERTAINLY not as a repository for the hatred brought about because of YOUR dissapointments in life.
I, not Robin whoever, and Andrea Blah Blah Blah, am the typical feminist. The outspoken psycho ones? They seem to be the majority because they are so outspoken, they’re published, they’re publicIZED.
“Feminists” don’t. Certain psycho people who CALL themselves feminists might, but please stop painting us all with the same brush.
Again, there are millions of women who are feminists. Whether or not they actually CALL themselves that, or believe that they are. According to the original definition of the word, if a woman believes that she should get equal pay for equal work and equal treatment under the law, then she is, by defnition, a feminist.
Well then, maybe we should quit slandering “feminists” and label these man-hating, amazon wannabes with a NEW title. Because what you’re saying about THAT type of “feminist” I for one, agree with.
My gripe, and my requests for cites was that I wanted proof that showed that the acts of a few “leaders” spoke for the whole “movement”.
CanvasShoes said:
At any rate, all your arguments are STILL against specific people who’ve made foolish statements. Even if there are several of them, that still, in no way, equates to “feminism” supporting those attitudes against men.
Who are you talking about? Do you actually ATTEND these “rallies all over the place”?? Or have you just only heard about them and are repeating it?
And even supposing that there were lots of rallies. Do PLEASE post a cite showing that you know that all the people attending these rallies then go about “repeating the lies over and over again”. What? do you follow and record each woman who has attended a rally?
Huh…Well, you obviously haven’t ever been on any kind of march or rally.
I used to yell "KILL THE EAGLES (Bears, Mustangs, insert high school mascot of your choice here) along with hundreds of my classmates at high school rallies… Sort of get caught up in the heat of the moment, you do.
I can’t see how a group of college women (as someone once pointed out in this thread, frequently a very intolerant, unbendable, set in their ways age group), yelling “down with violence” says anything about them hating men etc.
quote:
In other words, one can be a feminist and still NOT agree with MacKinnon, or whoever was determined to have sortof made the “sex = rape” type comments.
Ah, I see, and the staff at Ms. Magazine is the be all and end all and the ultimate spokesman (snort) for what women and feminists want?
So what? That’s like saying that Jenny Craig stands for what the fitness profession would like to have Americans follow for fitness.
Again, so what? I believe that I have a right to receive the same pay as a man, for doing the same work and that I shouldn’t be penalized for getting credit because I don’t have a husband, etc. THAT according to the definition, makes me a feminist. It doesn’t make me a man-hating lesbian, amazon wannabe though.
quote:
The basic and original (and still believed and worked for) concept of “feminism” was “equal pay for equal work, respect and decent and fair treatment”.
Hint. We’re not ON the “CWO Feminist Board”, relax, you’re with real people.
There’s a “human rightists” movement? Ya learn something new every day.
I think those extremist loud mouths have corrupted the meaning of the words feminism and feminist to the point that I don’t want association with them.
I am a believer in equal treatment under the law for all human beings, and I do not want to be associated with the what I have seen in my college courses and other dealings with self-titled ‘feminists.’
It’s unfortunate that it has happened that a few nutjobs and their fans have been all I’ve seen with the label ‘feminist’ on it, but that’s what I experienced and why I don’t want to be associated with that any more than I would want pride in my heritage (Russian Polish Hungarian and Greek) to be associated with those who believe pride in being of European descent means hating those who aren’t.
But you don’t see me going around and saying I have white-pride, either, because a very loud group of assholes ruined that too.
Perhaps it’s that I’m “old” then. I don’t ever really THINK of myself as a feminist (except in debates like this, when I realize I’m certainly not Maribell Mayweather, or whatever her name was).
I generally just think of myself as a PERSON. I’ve worked in one of the most male dominated fields a person probably can. The north slope oil field in Prudhoe Bay Alaska.
Other than a BIT of typically “gross” male behaviour, which a simple “Oh GROSS guys, KNOCK It off” takes care of almost immediately, I can’t remember any real discimination or sexual harrassment. I think that the new harrassment suits can be a bit frivolous “he leered at me”. Oh PUH Lease.
That said, I certainly wouldn’t want to go back to the days when women could be turned away from jobs simply because they were women, or days when the boss could decide that he wanted a blow job, and if she didn’t provide one, she could go to the unemployment line, and he’d find another secretary, and so on.
Maybe you’re too young too remember those days. I remember when my mom first got divorced. No credit card companies would give her credit. No matter how long she’d been at her job, or how much she made. And they were blunt about it, “you’re not married, you have no man to sign for you”.
And there was no law against their doing so. So, a few “old dogs” from those days who WERE mistreated pretty horribly are still around stirring things up.
I perhaps just had different experiences. My mother had her own credit rating and credit cards before she married my father, and she’s got far more education than he does. I worked on an all male contruction crew while going through engineering school, and have really never understood how ‘Did you get a haircut? It looks nice.’ is harassment.
I also never understood the female college student who said that she would lie about being raped so that she didn’t have to watch a particular film in one of her classes.
No, I’m not going to say who that was. It’s just an example of something I witnessed, and anyone here is free to believe or disbelieve it.
When I want to get the attention of the moderators of this board, I click on the link that says “Report this post to a moderator”. This has never failed to produce a timely and appropriate response from the SDMB staff. I recommend that anyone who believes they have spotted a rule-breaking post do the same thing.
It sounds as if we’re basically on the same page of music, other than that you seem to think that it’s"feminists" do the “lying about being raped/accusing someone of sexual harassment over stupid things” deal.
I believe that as far back as well BEFORE Susan B. Anthony, that if a woman was going to do something evil to a man, she could do it quite well without benefit of the so-called “feminist movement” (I mean, after all, that’s when they WERE “helpless delicate flowers”, if a woman was jilted or rejected by a suitor, all she had to do was tell daddy and the town minister that he tried to kiss her or something and it was all over but the throwing of rice for that poor boy, or worse) and that evils toward men, and man-bashing activities are hardly the sole provence of “feminists”.
I’m not sure that those old timer women thought of themselves as feminists, but I’ll bet that they had the same attitudes that are so stupid and evil as those bandied about by the women you named. The only difference is that they had to keep them under wraps and be a lot sneakier about it.
Until Andy coughs up a cite, you can bite me. Why, exactly, should I do something that he refuses to do? Oh, and you were quite the presence at Ms. this summer, too, Shodan. Funny how it appears you and Catsix joined the same day.
**Malacamdra, ** sweetie, you’ve persistantly ignored Andy’s refusal to provide a cite. Funny how you, Catsix and Shodan all have such different standards for Andy and feminists. Hm.
Devote as much attention to Andy’s methods, and I’ll start listening. You’re not exactly what I’d call an impartial judge.
Okay, margin. And therefore you argue that either:
a) Pizzey never said that about receiving death threats, or
b) Pizzey said it, all right, but she’s the kind of woman who gets quoted on “some fringe mens’ rights site”, so we’ll call her a liar.
Pick one. Otherwise your previous post makes no sense.
I’m not sitting as a “judge” exactly, either. Paint me as someone who’s arguing with you, if you like. Whining about a double standard and leaving me to prove that I am not applying one is a straight-down-the-middle tu quoque fallacy. To show that you are talking nonsense, I do not first have to prove that everything Andy et al have said is right. But why worry about adding another fallacy or two to your list of ad hominems, "No True Scotsman"s and straw men?
I’ll laugh at your attempt to call me a “sweetie”, and let other people judge whether or not resorting to it proves you actually have nothing to say.
Yup, she and I joined at much the same time. And got banned at much the same time, because most of the posters there cannot handle and will not tolerate disagreement of any sort. They are roughly the equivalent of St*rmfront with PMS - dishonest, hypocritical, abusive, willfully ignorant, and “irrepressively drab and awful”. In a word, feminazis.
Uh, Malacandra, YOU were the one who bitched at me about straw men and ad hominem attacks while blithely ignoring Andy’s useage of those very same techniques. Your sole source appears to be the site that you used. So who cares? You appear to be claiming that Pizzey’s alleged experience is the result of her brave threatening of feminist orthodoxy. But her wild claims—that women are more violent than men----invalidate her argument from the get-go. And they’re not helping whatever argument you think you’re making, either.
Andy’s first post in this thread made the following claim:
In support of which, he linked to lists of feminist “utopias” which were female only, thus demonstrating that one wish-fulfillment fantasy in feminism is females only.
He further posted as follows:
Note how he states his point, and backs it up with references to actions by Robin Morgan, editor of a magazine that claims to speak for feminism.
He also states a point and then backs it up in a subsequent post:
You admitted yourself that he was providing cites for his statements:
You accuse him of painting all feminists with the same brush, after he specifically states:
You asked for cites regarding what he claimed about men’s rights and father’s rights. He linked to this page, and to this.
You asked for a cite about Pizey. He provided this.
Number of cites provided by margin, on the other hand - zero.
Whining? Wrong again. I was banned at my own request. I asked to be removed because arguing with those bitches was like debating a parrot. You never hear anything original, and you always wind up with bird shit all over the floor.
A final word of warning - at some message boards, it is SOP to refer to anyone who disagrees with feminists as a “troll”, but here on the SDMB it is a violation of board rules.
You will apologize at once, and withdraw the accusation.
margin, broadly speaking the point I was making is this:
The “feminazi” subset of feminists asserts, inter alia, that domestic violence is a purely male-on-female crime. Men are violent; women are innocent victims. Not only is this untrue but it is exceedingly ironic that Erin Pizzey, a pioneer in the battered women’s refuge movement and a noted authoress on the subject of domestic violence, should have received death threats for claiming that women also had a strong propensity for violence. 62 of the first hundred women turning up at the doors of her Chiswick shelter were, she says, quite as violent as the men they were seeking shelter from.
I have provided a cite that purports to quote Pizzey herself on the issue of the threats against her, which I understood you to be contesting. That the site on which the quote appears should be a “men’s interests” site is not especially surprising. Given the extent to which Pizzey has been “marginalized” over the years for her controversial views, you would hardly expect to find her quoted with approval on a feminist site. Nevertheless, as I said, either the site itself quotes Pizzey incorrectly, or it quotes her correctly but she is lying, or it quotes her correctly on a true statement. There aren’t any other possibilities.
You find Pizzey unbelievable because of her “wild” claims concerning female violence. I suggest that this owes less to research than to preconceptions. She may very possibly have had far more experience in the field than you.
I’ll see Pizzey’s “alleged” experience and raise you your own “alleged” experiences, and see how you like your “alleging”, then.
You object to the cite concerning Pizzey being my only one, but what else have I been claiming that I owe you a cite for?
Andy’s first post in this thread made the following claim:
In support of which, he linked to lists of feminist “utopias” which were female only, thus demonstrating that one wish-fulfillment fantasy in feminism is females only.
He further posted as follows:
Note how he states his point, and backs it up with references to actions by Robin Morgan, editor of a magazine that claims to speak for feminism.
He also states a point and then backs it up in a subsequent post:
You admitted yourself that he was providing cites for his statements:
You accuse him of painting all feminists with the same brush, after he specifically states:
You asked for cites regarding what he claimed about men’s rights and father’s rights. He linked to this page, and to this.
You asked for a cite about Pizey. He provided this.
Number of cites provided by margin, on the other hand - zero.
Whining? Wrong again. I was banned at my own request. I asked to be removed because arguing with those bitches was like debating a parrot. You never hear anything original, and you always wind up with bird shit all over the floor.
A final word of warning - at some message boards, it is SOP to refer to anyone who disagrees with feminists as a “troll”, but here on the SDMB it is a violation of board rules.
You will apologize at once, and withdraw the accusation.
And Malacandra, are you actually disputing the fact that the majority of domestic violence victims are women? Are you actually claiming that it’s an equal opportunity offense? Sure, it is. I mean, just look around. Gangs of women roam the streets at night, attacking men. Men cower within doors, afraid of gangs of feminists who wait to harass them on the bus and commit the majority of violent acts. Yup, men are cringing in fear of women, because of course those women have such a physical advantage over men. Sorority sisters commit gang rapes on men on college campuses. Groups of women reguarly rob banks, gas stations, and intimidate people on the streets. Every day, three men die at the hands of women, their restraining orders clutched in their hands. Women kill each other every day in bar-room brawls, road-rage attacks, and murder suicides. Why, women commit 88 % of crime.
Are you talking about “human-rightsists” like Erin Pizzey here? Really? The woman who said:
This genuinely puzzles me. After googling her, I see no way that anyone could posit that she’s looking out for everyone. It would be a lot different if she was simply pointing out that men are victims of domestic violence as well, but she calls women things like “terrorists of the family.”
I mean, I understand that some posters here disagree with some of the more radical feminists, but I just can’t see why Erin Pizzey is held up as some sort of great alternative. She seems as batty as the women she’s fighting.
True, good point!!