Construct: Are you for real?

[Monty]

@Tithonus

Foul mouthed? In the pit? Heaven forbid! Of course, it’s not like I’ve been insulted, is it? I’ve not been called a mouth breathing asshat, or a fuckwad, or a nob, or a chucklefuck, or a herpty-derp cunt of the week, have I? Oh. Wait. Yes I have. I eagerly await your snotty chiding of Kobal2 and Monty for their “foulmouthed” posts.

My foul-mouthed posts directed at you? Which posts of mine would that be where I was foul-mouthed?

[Memnon]

@Monty

My foul-mouthed posts directed at you? Which posts of mine would that be where I was foul-mouthed?

“That’s always a great question to ask these nobs. But, of course, the usual response is along the lines of they don’t need to meet one to know.”

Maybe the meaning of ‘nob’ is different in America, but in the U.K. ‘nob’ means ‘dick’. That was addressed to Bridget Burke after she had *“Have you ever actually met a Muslim” to me. So I took it as though you were addressing me, although maybe not exclusively. If I’ve got that wrong I apologise.

Edit: Actually, looking back through the thread, I see that I was actually rude to you first, so I apologise in any event.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Are you going to tell us whose sock you are?

[MrDibble]

@Tithonus

Maybe the meaning of ‘nob’ is different in America, but in the U.K. ‘nob’ means ‘dick’.

Aah, you’re from the part of the UK that can’t spell “knob”, eh. Should have said you were a chav. “3-storey semi-detached terrace house”, I see you’re on the end of your street down the estate, then. Nice.

[Memnon]

@MrDibble

Aah, you’re from the part of the UK that can’t spell “knob”, eh. Should have said you were a chav. “3-storey semi-detached terrace house”, I see you’re on the end of your street down the estate, then. Nice.

It can be spelt both ways.

Also…chav? Seriously? What exactly do you have against the working class?

[wonky]

Not really a word I use often, but a “nob” is a rich, entitled person.

[Monty]

@Tithonus

“That’s always a great question to ask these nobs. But, of course, the usual response is along the lines of they don’t need to meet one to know.”

Maybe the meaning of ‘nob’ is different in America, but in the U.K. ‘nob’ means ‘dick’. That was addressed to Bridget Burke after she had *“Have you ever actually met a Muslim” to me. So I took it as though you were addressing me, although maybe not exclusively. If I’ve got that wrong I apologise.

Edit: Actually, looking back through the thread, I see that I was actually rude to you first, so I apologise in any event.

Do you know what swell means, especially when used sarcastically to refer to a person? It certainly isn’t foul-mouthed. You’re still a nob.

Great. So you’re apologizing for your reaction to what you perceived as someone including you in what you see as an incorrect generalization. Do you not see the irony there?

[MrDibble]

@Tithonus

It can be spelt both ways.

Urbandictionary is as much use as a guide for spelling as it is for sex practices.

Also…chav? Seriously? What exactly do you have against the working class?

Nothing. I’m all for the working classes.

What’s that got to do with chavs, guv?

[Memnon]

@Monty

Do you know what swell means, especially when used sarcastically to refer to a person? It certainly isn’t foul-mouthed. You’re still a nob.

Great. So you’re apologizing for your reaction to what you perceived as someone including you in what you see as an incorrect generalization. Do you not see the irony there?

God, you’re boring.

[Monty]

@Tithonus

God, you’re boring.

I’ll take that as a negative answer to my last question put to you, nob.

[Guinastasia]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Are you going to tell us whose sock you are?

Construct’s?

[Bridget_Burke]

If one remains skeptical when reading his “interpretation” sections, I find Robert Graves’ Greek Myths quite useful:

At the close of every night, rosy-fingered, saffron-robed Eos, a daughter of the Titans Hyperion and Theia, rises from her couch in the east, mounts her chariot drawn by the horses Lampus and Phaëthon, and rides to Olympus, where she announces the approach of her brother Helius. When Helius appears, she becomes Hemera, and accompanies him on his travels until, as Hespera, she announces their safe arrival on the western shores of Ocean.

Aphrodite was once vexed to find Ares in Eos’s bed, and cursed her with a constant longing for young mortals, whom thereupon she secretly and shamefacedly began to seduce, one after the other. First, Orion; next, Cephalus; then Cleitus, a grandson of Melampus; though she was married to Astraeus, who came of Titan stock, and to whom she bore not only the North, West, and South Winds, but also Phosphorus and, some say, all the other stars of Heaven.

Lastly, Eos carried off Ganymedes and Tithonus, sons of Tros or Ilus. When Zeus robbed her of Ganymedes she begged him to grant Tithonus immortality, and to this he assented. But she forgot to ask also for perpetual youth, a gift won by Selene for Endymion; and Tithonus became daily older, greyer, and more shrunken, his voice grew shrill, and, when Eos tired of nursing him, she locked him in her bedroom, where he turned into a cicada.

Tithonus has reappeared in diverse works. X-Files? Torchwood? And that favorite of pompous Brits–Alfred, Lord Tennyson…

[MrDibble]

A shrill, ugly insect that spends its formative years in the dark, sucking hard, and then emerges to irritate the everliving fuck out of everyone around? That’s apropos.

[A_isha]

@Tithonus

A belief that martyrs who die fighting “enemies of Islam” get fast-tracked to paradise, for instance, is simply incompatible with 21st century weaponry.

This is a bad idea, unique to Islam,

This is still just as wrong as it was the first time you posted it.

1). Who, according to religious scholar Mohammed Zaman, has historically been “unrelentingly hostile to Sufism”? Is it:

a). The cast of Friends?
b). Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
c). The Boston Philharmonic Orchestra?
d). Salafist Muslims?

2). Why are Sufis persecuted? Is it:

a). Salafist Muslims consider Sufism to be shirk heresy, based on their reading of Islamic texts?
b). There is no B. That’s fucking it!

The Salafists who didn’t appear until the mid-1700s, some 900 years after the founding of Islam? The Salafists that were considered heretics and whose leaders were executed and/or exiled after they first rebelled against the Caliphate and seized Mecca tried to impose their fundamentalist beliefs on their fellow Muslims? The Salafists who only finally managed to achieve the position they hold today after the British dismantled the Caliphate and helped them seize power in the Arabian peninsula in the first part of the 20th Century?

Those Salafists?

Hell, where are the Palestinian Christian suicide bombers?

Why the insistence on Palestinian Christian suicide bombers? There have been plenty of Lebanese Christian suicide bombers during the wars of recent decades there.

Palestinian Christians seem to have settled for regular terrorist bombings and pioneering the armed hijacking of Israeli airliners instead.

While the Bible may contain some pretty unsavoury ideas, it doesn’t contain the specific ideas required to manufacture suicide bombers.

Ooops, looks like you were wrong again.

Okay, firstly, there are five major schools of thought, not four. Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali, and Shafi’i are Sunni schools; Ja’fari is Shia. I’m surprised A’isha let you off the hook for that one, given that she used my failure to give a fucking page reference for an Al Bukari Hadith as grounds to conclude that I only found out about Islam yesterday, probably on the O’Reilly Factor or something.

That’s because the Shia school is rarely lumped in with the others, and it’s common and entirely acceptable to refer to just the four Sunni schools.

As to the idea these schools don’t agree on anything? Well, let’s put that to the test, shall we? Tell me, which of the five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence holds that apostasy isn’t a crime punishable by imprisonment or death? How much room for interpretation is there on that little question?

Which of the same schools holds that blasphemy isn’t a crime punishable by imprisonment or death?

Which of the same schools doesn’t hold that homosexual acts are punishable crimes?

Hmm. What are the Biblical punishments for those things, again?

Hey, maybe that’s why, of the ten countries on Earth in which homosexuality is still a capital “crime” all ten are Islamic?

Not only does that article start off by talking about how Christian Uganda heavily punishes homosexuality and very nearly (with the support of American evangelical Christians) made it a capital offense, the Nigerian president mentioned in the article who signed the law similar to Uganda;s, Goodluck Jonathan, is Christian. And among the “10 countries” listed are some Muslim-majority states where there is no death penalty on the books for homosexuality but that were listed solely because random murders of gay people by people in those countries take place. And yet, oddly, the Christian country of Russia, where homosexuality is heavily persecuted but not officially given the death penalty but where the mob murders of a number of gay people has taken place recently, is not listed.

9:5 - Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the zakat, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

While I know that you would like to believe that Q 9:5 mandates that Muslims murder non-Muslims on sight, I’m afraid that most Muslims not only don’t see things quite the same way, they haven’t for Islam’s entire history. In fact, it’s not uncommon to find in tafsir even in the first centuries after Islam’s foundation scholars who considered 9:5 to have been abrogated (which is why I warned you about bringing in abrogation as a way to “explain away” all those peaceful verses in the Qur’an that you find so inconvenient to your position).

And Ibn Al Qamadah, a highly influential scholar of the Hanbali school wrote that Jihad becomes Fard if “Kuffar enter a sacred land” (Al Mughni 8/354 - happy, A’isha?)

No, because al Qamadah didn’t say “if Kuffar enter a sacred land”, implying that it’s the obligatory duty of all Muslims everywhere to slay a non-Muslim who wanders into Mecca or something. He said jihad becomes fard 'ayn for one of three reasons: if you’re a soldier in a battle line eyeing the enemy army from across the battlefield (ie, there’s no running away), if the sovereign of the Muslim country declares war on a non-Muslim country, and “if unbelievers invade Muslim territory”. In other words, he was describing the position of all the major schools, that offensive jihad, jihad al-talab is a collective duty (ie, not binding on all Muslims) and only to take place when authorized by the 'amir, and it’s only the defensive jihad, jihad al-daf’, that is the personal obligation of every Muslim.

Now, I could go on like this all the live long day. You want quotes from prominent scholars of the other schools, just ask.

Such as Shafi’i scholar al-Nawawi, who says “Infidels who invade our territory should be driven out by armed force by all possible means, and by all the inhabitants of the territory invaded, poor, children, debtors, and slaves, without previous authorization” and “it is blameable to invade the territory of infidels without the authorization of the Soveriegn or his deputy” (Minhaj al-Talibin 57.1.2 and 57.2.1)

Martyrdom in battle as a duty with special rewards in the hereafter? Yeah. I’m totally for real. That’s unique to Islam.

Once again, nope.

Why the fuck would you restrict yourself to terror attacks in Europe?

Because that’s where the infidels are, and if it were the Islamic duty of every Muslim to murder infidels, as you keep trying to claim, then it seems virtually the entire Muslim population of Europe is slacking on the job.

Which means your assertions are just so much bullshit.

*2:23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
2:24 And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

2:98 Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.

4:37 Who hoard their wealth and enjoin avarice on others, and hide that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty. For disbelievers We prepare a shameful doom.*

Once again, welcome to every fucking religion ever.

And if the hadith didn’t contain verses like:

Ahadith don’t contain ayat.

”nobody who enters Paradise would return to the world even if he were given everything in it, except a martyr who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times over because of the honour and dignity he received” - Al Bukhari (reference deliberately expunged to annoy A’isha).

It’s 2817, or 4.52.72.

“Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, ‘He (a Muslim) who dies of an abdominal disease is a martyr, and he who dies of plague is a martyr.’” (al-Bukhari 5733/7.71.629)

This brings us back to one of the ways in which Islam contains uniquely bad ideas. Of course, the concept of martyrdom per se isn’t unique to Islam. Indeed, Islam offers several ways in which one can become a martyr including drowning, dying in a fire, or dying of plague. But the idea that one can be a martyr for waging war “in defence of Islam” (a phrase which, given the tangled history between Islam and the West, can justify almost any act of aggression) is one which has no equivalent in other religious texts.

This is what, the third time you’ve asserted this nonsense in just this post? Bullshit doesn’t stop being bullshit through repetition, you know.

[A_isha]

@A_isha

if the sovereign of the Muslim country declares war on a non-Muslim country,

This should read "if the sovereign of the Muslim country declares war on a non-Muslim country and orders a particular people to jihad, it is *fard 'ayn *for them, but still *fard kifaya *for everyone else.

Sorry, I’m visiting my parents this weekend and typed my post up a little hurriedly.

[SlackerInc]

@Monty

Then you and they are just as ignorant as Construct is.

You can write me off as ignorant, then, too. There is a lot of right wing ideology in the non-Islam quotes that I disagree strongly with–although it is at least intelligently presented. But there was very little about the statements on Islam I don’t cosign. (I’m a liberal/progressive of the Belmar, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris variety.)

[Monty]

@SlackerInc

You can write me off as ignorant, then, too. There is a lot of right wing ideology in the non-Islam quotes that I disagree strongly with–although it is at least intelligently presented. But there was very little about the statements on Islam I don’t cosign. (I’m a liberal/progressive of the Belmar, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris variety.)

You quoted me from 18 days ago, yet your post is almost content-free. It’s certainly substantiation-free. Now that you’ve gotten it off your chest that you dislike Islam, would you actually care to “intelligently present” your rationale as to why you think the other person’s assertion is true? For you convenience, here is the assertion:

Islam is a terribly insidious religion that poses a real and pernicious threat to the world

[SlackerInc]

I’m basically cosigning some of what **Construct **said. (The thread is after all about him/her.) Specifically, the following:

“Islam is the religion of a pedophile and false prophet.”

(Although to be fair, *all *the prophets of all religions are false. Not sure they are all pedophiles however.)

“But see the BBC survey posted above indicating that 27% (>600,000) British Muslims sympathize with the Charlie Hebdo terrorists.”

“4 in 5 Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam.”

“Yeah, giving tens of millions of people whose only relation to Europe is a tiny toehold conquered via warfare and who aren’t part of the European cultural tradition free and permanent access to Europe is surely a good idea. Diversity is our strength and everyone knows the concepts that comprise the Western way of life, such as freedom of religion, non-violence and constitutional republics, are very important to Muslims. The Muslims may have been stopped at the border of France and then at the gates of Vienna, by the grace of God, the third time will be charm. They have a force more powerful than any army – they have millions of leftists desperate to signal their support for ‘human rights’ and Islam on their side.”

(I don’t endorse the “grace of God” part, but the rest is spot on.)

I’ll add a thought experiment borrowed from Sam Harris that helps clarify how pernicious Islam is. Think about the Broadway musical “The Book of Mormon”. Now imagine the same treatment being given to Muhammad in a Broadway musical. How many riots would break out around the world? What insurance company would insure such a production? What actor would be willing to act in such a play, regardless of price, unless it was anonymously wearing a mask (and even then)? How severe would the security have to be? Would you need to have security checkpoints blocks away to defeat truck bombs?

Edited to add: I just noticed that my earlier post, composed on my phone, incorrectly transcribed “Bill Maher” as “Belmar”. Oops.

[Monty]

Here’s a thought experiment for you, Slacker: what percentage of Muslims do you believe live in Egypt?

[SlackerInc]

In Egypt, arguably our closest Mideast ally? IDK, probably five or six percent.