He won’t read it. Why should he read about something that only exists in other people’s minds? His is a closed mind if ever I have seen one.
Of course, he insulted my family. I clearly stated my parents were deceased, he parodies their names and presents it as if they were alive and it was a normal conversation. You think I have no feelings for my deceased parents, do you think it is ok to distort meanings, or is it just ok because I am a spiritualist posting in atheist territory.
Now, there are alternative explanations for everything that happens in this world. God made it rain. Evil accounts for earthquakes. This alternative explanation theory could be taken anywhere to explain anything. Just don’t think it’s relevent.
Love
Leroy
Yes, I did look at it. When I was young we used to play games at parties using this kind of thing, no one took it seriously. My daughter had a boyfriend once who believed himself to be a psychic. He used this method, even got on a radio show or two. That was years ago and he is still not making a living at it, because he just doesn’t have the talent.
Please give the people who get readings some credit for having brains. They know when they are being fooled. When the psychic is never right, or when they have been cold read.
The last time that happened to me was in a health food store. There was a lady reading for people and advising them what to buy. When I got my reading she said you drink Dr. Pepper and should stop. I bought a few things, then after we left I remembered I had mentioned drinking Dr. Pepper to another person in line. Yes, it happens, but not in every case. I would love to have a reading from James.
Love
Leroy
lekatt, I honestly don’t think Attrayant was trying to mock your parents. He was being light-hearted, describing a hypothetical conversation, and used the literary convention of telling an anecdote in the present tense. I really don’t think he was trying to be malicious.
Let me try to explain the burden of proof thing carefully, lekatt:
It may be impossible to prove that van Praagh is not psychic. Even if it is clearly demonstrable that what he’s doing can be accomplished through skilled guessing and a shrewd grasp of human behavior, that still doesn’t prove that he’s not psychic. He could just be getting information from spirits that is equivalent to what he information he can produce through shrewd guesswork. The only way to really prove he’s a fraud is if he majorly screws up: somebody gets ahold of a tape of a private conversation where he brags to his friend about fleecing the marks, or his assistants are caught delivering information to him that he later is documented passing off as “from the spirits,” or something like that. In other words, he would have to be insanely stupid, which, judging from the fact that he’s made a successful career in the biz, he is not.
So putting the burden of proof on the skeptics just does not work. “Van Praagh is not a psychic” is not a claim that could always be demonstrated, even if it is 100% true, so demanding that this claim be proved is disingenuous.
The proper way to approach the problem is that the person making the positive claim needs to prove that they are correct. In this case, the postive claim is, “Van Praagh can communicate with spirits.”
Skeptics say that he accomplishes what he does by cold reading, which is certainly the simpler explanation compared to “after death, our spirits live on in a plane completely undetectable to modern science and not interacting with the physical world in any measurable way–oh, except that they tell this one guy that an older man whose name begins with a J or an L who passed on due to a problem with the chest, or possibly the head, wants his son to know that he’s very proud of him and loves him very much.”
If van Praagh or his supporters want the skeptics to accept the complicated explanation (existence of a whole other plane of existence, etc. etc. etc.) over the simple explanation (use of well-known methods for exploiting quirks of human psychology) they need to provide some proof: perhaps a well-designed experiment where van Praagh produces information that could not be obtained by guessing in an environment where skilled observers agree that all means of cheating have been eliminated.
If van Praagh is the real deal, why would he hesitate to perform such an experiment? Keep in mind that in most cases (Randi’s million dollar challenge, for example) the people making the claim have a big hand in designing the experiment. They make their claim: say what they will do, and under what condititions they can do it. The experts then help design an experiment that tests this claim. The experiment won’t go forward unless both sides agree that the it will be fair, and the results decisive. If he really can communicate with the dead, isn’t that of tantamount importance to all of humanity? Doesn’t it have profound scientific, philosophical, and theological ramifications? Why doesn’t van Praagh want to convince the skeptics, to the benefit of all mankind?
BTW, if you don’t believe cold reading is real, what’s the deal with mentalists? Mentalists are entertainers who perform feats of apparent psychic ability for entertainment, while making it clear to their audiences that they are engaging in trickery. Do they only think that they’re cold reading? Are they actually really psychics, and don’t know it?
Ah, I see that you admit that some people do cold reading. Good. Now you just need to realize that recognizing some examples of bad cold reading doesn’t mean that you would not be tricked by a very skillful cold reader.
(Also, what the Dr. Pepper lady did to you is not called cold reading, it’s called hot reading, because she had some information about you before the reading began.)
lekatt:
let me start by saying some nice things. I believe you had an NDE that was powerful and life-changing to you. I understand that your belief in the spiritual world is very important to you and is a part of your identity. I understand that sometimes people are not kind to you when you speak of your experience or your beliefs. I think that you feel like you’re trying to spread a message, to let people in on something important and that they mock you for your efforts. I know that I’ve been snide to you in some of the threads on these issues, and for that I apologize.
But…
That doesn’t change the fact that there is no hard evidence to show the existence of a spiritual world. This doesn’t mean there isn’t one, but those of us who prefer an empirical attitude towards these matters cannot feel emotionally satisfied of a truth until we can see some irrefutable proof. I can’t speak for others, but I will say for myself that I want to see some genuine psychic phenomenon. I would love to find out that there really is something more than the physical universe. But the evidence just isn’t there. Scientific research into psychics is always disappointing. There is no joy in exposing another fraud, just a growing frustration.
I say with all sincerity that I respect your personal experience, and I give you credit for standing up for your beliefs in these threads no matter how much you get piled up on. Any acerbity or anger that i express in these threads is directed at people who I believe are dishonest and predatory and not to you personally, in fact, I think I’d probably like you if I met you IRL.
Peace.
Lekatt, you made an assertion about Houdini which I am still waiting for you to back up.
—Of course, he insulted my family. I clearly stated my parents were deceased, he parodies their names and presents it as if they were alive and it was a normal conversation.—
No he did not insult your family. Just because people are dead doesn’t make something that wasn’t an insult to begin with into an insult. His names were simply taken off your posting name, since has no idea what your family’s names are, other than that they are related to you. That isn’t even a joke at your expense, much less your family’s.
—Now, there are alternative explanations for everything that happens in this world.—
In this case, the alternative happens to be a lot more plausible, and you’re going to have to rule it out somehow. Otherwise, all you’re doing is revealing how ridiculously low your burden of proof is: you’ll accept events as evidence of psychic powers without even looking to explain them any other way.
—This alternative explanation theory could be taken anywhere to explain anything. Just don’t think it’s relevent.—
It’s extremely relevant because YOU claimed that what happened was startling and demonstrated some sort of psyhic link (even though you are refusing to expand upon the possibility that you father simply knew something you didn’t: if he was as surprised as you that your brother called, that’s one thing, maybe, but you didn’t even say THAT much). However, the reality is that such events almost MUST happen to some people at some point.
You are accusing him of bad faith.
It doesn’t “explain anything” it speaks DIRECTLY against your own claim about it being extrordinary.
Let’s see what Lekatt’s tally is so far:
Argumentum ad ignorantiam, ad hominem, ad hoc, post hoc, ad verecundiam, anonymous authorities, slothful induction, EVERY single falacy of explanation (Subverted support, non-support, untestability, limited scope, and limited depth), reliance on anecdotal evidence (Lots of this), ad nauseam, red hering, avoiding others’ points, shifting of burden of proof (Lots and LOTS of this)…
…And no credible physical evidence, or even a good, sound, logical argument.
It’s like a WWI trench-warfare battle against ignorance. Shots firing back and forth, blasting uselessly at the oponent’s defences, the casualties mounting… And no progress being made.
Lekatt -I’m assuming here, so forgive me if I’m wrong. I’m assuming you don’t believe every psychic. By psychic I do not mean someone who’s had a NDE-I don’t know if you think I’m implying that I don’t believe you about your NDE. I’m only talking about psychics.
If you don’t believe all psychics, what is the distinction, where is the dividing line between honest psychics and charlotens?
Is it in their preformance?
Arse.
So, if he gets the details wrong, its because the spirits are playing chinese whispers. Purple Monkey dishwasher.
If they eliminate the language barrier in the spirit world, and have a complete system of symbols that all spirits understand, why would it matter if the spirit was an english speaker when alive or not?
The person the father figure wants to contact morphs into the first person to reply to his question.
he moves them away from the Audience so that he can more accurately read their body language and base his questions upon that.
Wow. El Nino is responsible for something else every day.
Yeah, that 9/11 show was a real touch of class.
They’ll never understand unless they suspend sanity.
Lekatt -You said this,
If we accept this, then how does Edwards get specific enough to guess letters in the person’s name?
If it’s only symbols, and letters are included, then why not spell out the individuals full name?
Here is what you said:
Where do you “clearly” state that your parents are deceased? In the preceeding paragraph you only state that they are presently deceased, or deceased at some other point in time when you had an “encounter” with them. You give no reference of timeframe between the two paragraphs. You were anything but clear.
Anyway you missed the whole point of my post, I don’t know whether that was because you were busy channeling all your faculties into an emotional outburst or you just didn’t have anything relevant to say.
Moderator’s Note: TwistofFate, direct personal insults are not allowed in Great Debates.
If you are refering to this
It was in relation to the complete rediculous of the content, not a reflection on the character of LeKatt, who I am sure if a lovely person.
Can you perhaps explain how you saw it as a personal insult?
rediculousness.
is.
It appeared to me that you were calling the poster himself an “arse”, rather than making a comment on the content of the post.
Please try to be a bit more careful in how you express your disdain for the content of the post.
cheerfully withdrawn 
What about that Purple Monkey dishwasher bit???
Seriously.
Lekatt- it is incumbent on you to show proof. Not those of us who don’t believe.