That was an unusal thing, let me assure you. Rare is the person not actually in the venue who will stand for that national anthem in the US.
Happens around here as long as there’s one hardass who starts it and everyone feels compelled to follow.
Absolutely yes, they do.
But they did not believe she was dying. They believed she was faking. And they got that belief from the very medical professionals that could have helped her.
…we know what they believed.
But look at what was at stake here.
On the one hand? They make a phone call back to the hospital, the triage nurse comes out, makes an assessment, determines that she isn’t faking (because she wasn’t), gets the urgent care that she requires and maybe Lisa Edwards doesn’t die.
On the other hand, they do what they did. Stand around and berate her. Leave her lying cold on the sidewalk. Lisa Edwards brain gets damaged. Then she dies.
What would the cops have lost by going with the first option? It wouldn’t have been time. The whole thing took over an hour anyway. And this is what hospitals do. They assess people. As others in the thread keep pointing out, they were the experts.
There is a very real phenomenon where Black people, marginalised people, disabled people, get routinely disbelieved by cops in situations like this. From an article written in 2013:
What we saw here isn’t new. And what we saw here wasn’t right. The cops behaved the way that cops do. And that got Edwards killed.
Cite please.
Thinking your medical opinion is better than a medical professional’s when said medical professional is dismissing an obvious problem is a good practice for keeping yourself and your loved ones alive. I’ve seen too many deaths and near misses from people unwilling to question.
Yes, exactly! Everything the cops saw, the hospital staff saw. The cops at that point couldn’t take her to the hospital, because she was already there. They couldn’t give her medical attention themselves, because they weren’t doctors, and the doctors, who were already there, had already decided not to.
No, that’s the problem: There was evidence that she was abusive to the hospital staff, that evidence being that the hospital called the cops on her. That evidence was false, because the medical professionals falsified it.
So the doctors who killed her, shrug, doctors make mistakes, but the cops who couldn’t have done anything to help her, it’s inexcusable that they couldn’t help her?
Obviously not, in this case. It’s what they should prioritize. And if they had, this woman would still be alive.
I think the overarching point here is that LEO has one mode of operation. We cannot elicit their assistance to deal with a concern unless we intend for the result to be utter submission of the difficult party or, failing that, a proper dustup.
By which I mean to say, we have no intermediate solution. The police will not show up and converse with the person for a while and gently guide them to elsewhere (or call over a nurse and ask, are you sure she is ok). Rough is the only MO they understand (unless, of course, the person in question can elicit sympathy or is pretty), and there are currently no alternatives for dealing with minor problems.
In the sense that they are trained to be thugs, it is wrong for us to ask/expect them not to be thuggish. Until we can manage to get police training and expectations changed to be more helpful and less jackbootish, this thread will continue to expand like a fungus.
Suppose the cops were helpful and interested in the wellbeing of this person, and didn’t believe the hospital, what should have been their course of action?
The appropriate course of action would had been to sit next to her and discuss the situation. Figure out how to resolve the problem without immediately resorting to you are a bad person attitude. First try to get her to coöperate before becoming hostile and demanding. It seems to me they like rolled in there with their authoritah blazing, ready to rumble (I could have the wrong impression).
What they usually do.
Turn their cameras off, shout conflicting directions at the doctors, then beat the shit out of them for resisting arrest and/or threatening Our Men In Blue.
“He had a knife!” (scalpel).
I’ll do you one better. Put yourself in her shoes. Suppose it were you.
Which is exactly what the hospital was expecting and desiring when they called them.
It is troubling that someone called us, so we feel obligated to arrive aligned to that party’s side, rather than we ought to assess the situation, because that second idea just requires too much extra thimking.
Irrelevant, really. I’m sure the cops could have handled this better, I’m not sure it would have changed the ultimate outcome. My question (genuine, not a gotcha) is what course of action would have resulted in getting the woman proper care?
…so you’ve decided to troll. Gotcha.
The problem we have here is that you aren’t engaging in good faith. Because almost everything you’ve posted here so far on this hasn’t been true. At first I thought you were simply mistaken. But now you are plainly just making stuff up.
Yes, there were hospital staff there in the encounter. Hospital security. By my count, there were at least two of them. There were no doctors, or nurses. At one stage a man walks past in the distance and Edwards tries to yell at him for help: but he doesn’t hear her, and he may not have been a doctor anyway.
This is a lie. She had been discharged and released an hour before the encounter started. Prior to her discharge was the last time she would have interacted with the doctors. If doctors had assessed her after the encounter began with the police, it would have been caught on the body cameras.
That didn’t happen. No doctors were seen on the cameras.
In the second video I posted, her condition declined significantly from how it was at the opening. Most notably with her voice. But there were a number of other concerning factors. All of them clear indications of a stroke. But at no stage did a doctor or a nurse from the hospital decide to not give her medical attention. Not after she noticeably began to decline.
Security guards (not doctors or nurses) informed the cops when they arrived that “Edwards had been evaluated, discharged, and was refusing to leave.” She had been trespassed and requested police permission to get her to leave the building.
Nothing (except your obviously provocative trolling speculation) suggests she was abusive to hospital staff. In all of the video that has so far been released, Edwards is abusive in precisely none of them.
So just to be clear here again: there is zero evidence that Edwards was being abusive to hospital staff.
Which doctors were responsible for killing her?
The hospital claims she was discharged when she was stable. Which, as anyone with any familiarity with the US healthcare system would know, is the minimum they are required to do.
And in the opening of the video she appears to be stable. It’s only after she is dragged out of her chair (despite protestations that she is unable to walk) and they try to force her, violently, into the wagon that she begins to decline and starts to exhibit obvious symptoms of another stroke.
So was she not stable when she was released? Do you have any evidence to support that? And if the police had told the doctors about how her condition had changed, that she was no longer stable, is it your opinion that the doctors would have ignored that?
They can’t prioritize something they literally didn’t know about.
If you haven’t already watched the longer video I posted, then if you really want the answer to that question then I suggest you watch it. At least the first couple of minutes CW: it contains disturbing content. I’ll post it here again for you.
Listen to her at the start of the video. Now observe how things change at about the one minute mark.
Now: pick any one of these links. It really doesn’t matter which one. They all say the same thing. And they are written for the “non-expert.” Just like (apparently) the cops here. So you, just like them, should be able to follow along.
F.A.S.T. | Stroke Foundation NZ
Is it a stroke?
St John first aid guide for stroke
A stroke is a condition in which part of the brain is affected by an interruption to the normal blood supply. Find out first aid advice on what to do when someone has experienced a stroke.
(What to Do When Someone Is Having a Stroke)
What to Do When Someone Is Having a Stroke
A stroke can be life-threatening, so it’s important to act fast. If you think a loved one is having a stroke, here’s what you should and shouldn’t do.
Stroke - Symptoms
Read about the symptoms of a stroke. If you suspect a stroke, phone 999 immediately and ask for an ambulance.
Stroke Signs and Symptoms | cdc.gov
Learn the signs and symptoms of stroke so you can act F.A.S.T.
Stroke first aid | Signs and advice | British Red Cross
So do you think that after the one minute mark she is showing signs of a stroke?
If the answer is no, then you probably won’t have an issue with how this all played out.
If the answer is “the hospital said she was faking” then I would put it back to you that no they did not. I’ve gone through multiple articles, listened to the video a couple of times, and consistent from story-to-story and with the video the most the hospital have said was that she had been evaluated, was stable, and discharged.
The cops claim she was “medically cleared.” But whether or not that actually appeared on the discharge form, or if the cop just made it up, or if it was included but the cops didn’t understand what it means, is all up in the air.
But this article sums up what “medically cleared” actually means, from a medical standpoint:
https://sullivanlegal.us/rethinking-medical-clearance/
The cop uses “medical clearance” to accuse Edwards of “faking it.” Many in this thread have taken that to mean the hospital accused her of faking it. But there is no evidence to support that at all. When she was discharged, she was stable. When she was lying on the concrete she was not. The cops accused her of faking it based on stupid assumptions that medical conditions don’t change. But according to all the reports I have seen: the hospital did not say she was faking. They couldn’t have said she was faking because they were not made aware of her medical decline.
If the answer is “yes”, it looks like a stroke" then the article (whichever one you chose to read) tells you what to do in order to get the woman proper care. And they all say the same thing: call an ambulance, call the hospital, call 911, get her medical treatment as soon as you can. Because every minute counts.
So the TLDR version of “what course of action would have resulted in getting the woman proper care?” is simply basic first aid. As soon as she showed signs of having a stroke, contact the hospital and tell them you think she is having a stroke. Then look after her until they get there.
The idea that the “doctors had already decided not to treat her” is nonsense. Because being “medically cleared” doesn’t mean it’s impossible for the discharged person to relapse, or decline, or display new symptoms. And when that happens, they get re-evaluated.
This is almost all on the cops. And the more that people try and defend them here, the more obvious it is that the police really fucked this up.
Since this is America, I’m sure there’s another scandalous police encounter by now. Is it possible to give that other one a rest now?
…there are people in this thread that are continuing to insist that this actually isn’t “another scandalous police encounter.” If people are going to blatantly lie about this incident then I don’t think there is anything wrong with calling them out. They actually think that apart from being rude, the police really didn’t do anything wrong here.
I mean, seriously, nobody is stopping you from talking about something else. There are no shortages of stories. Ignore me, block me, move on with life. But I don’t think I’m off topic here. This was a controversial encounter between law-enforcement and civilians where multiple people have argued that the actions of the police really wasn’t that controversial at all. Do you agree with them?
Agreed, and you’ve called them out, and called them out, and called them out. No one is changing any minds at this point.
Keeping in mind that I’m speaking only of her care, so I’m making no claims that she would have survived had the officers or doctors done anything different, I had mentioned some things that I’d think would have been considered ‘proper care’ by the officers after they were given the all clear by the hospital.
First and foremost, they could have just walked back in and told the medical staff she’s declining and they need help. If for whatever reason, that wasn’t an option, they have EMTs at their disposal. They could have requested EMTs come out there and evaluate her and/or bring her back into the hospital or take her to different hospital.
One of the things I’m curious about is what the police initially told the hospital. I feel like bringing her in and saying “She’s said she has [symptoms], can you take a look at her” vs “She said she has [symptoms], I think she’s faking, but I need an all clear from you before I take her to jail” could inadvertently misguide the nurses/doctors.
That is, did the police poison the well? Did the medical staff do a half-assed job because they’re so used to the police being right 9 times out of 10 that they think someone is faking it?
Not that it changes anything, but it points to a problem considerably bigger than a few asshole cops.
How is putting yourself in her shoes irrelevant? Imagine you’re actively having a stroke and instead of going to the hospital, you have a bunch of cops yelling at you because they think you’re lying. Is there anything you can think of that they could be doing differently?
I agree. It’s entirely possible that the specific stroke she had would have been fatal even if she had it while at the hospital under the best of circumstances or maybe it would have been completely survivable had they just brought her back in, but that’s not what’s up for debate. IMO, we have to be careful that the debate surrounding if she was treated properly given the situation doesn’t turn into a debate about if she even would have survived had she been brought back in. I worry that if people are convinced she would have died anyway her treatment by the cops will be considered an irrelevant footnote.
Also, it’s worth noting that the police went into this situation on the fatally incorrect assumption that she’s faking it.