Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread

[Starving_Artist]

@iiandyiiii

One can’t help but wonder if the cops heeded her assertion that he had a traumatic brain injury, or if they considered that maybe they could de-escalate the situation, especially with her help (which she was obviously trying to do).

What would you have had them do, raise their hands, back off and apologize, saying “Oh, sorry, we didn’t know you had brain injury, just come on out whenever you feel up to it. We’ll be over here shooting the breeze and eating ice cream and just let us know when you’re ready to talk”?

Brain injuries don’t exempt you from doing things that hurt or kill people. The police were trying to determine whether he had a gun. They were trying to get him out of the car so they could assess the situation and deal with it safely and correctly. Until they could get the situation under control there was nothing they could do to heed her comments about his brain injury.

@iiandyiiii

No, we have incident after incident in which you keep saying this with intermittent or totally absent evidence. This video doesn’t show anything threatening, and neither does the Tulsa video, especially considering the other information that has been released (that they already searched the car and found no weapons – so they knew he couldn’t be going for a weapon in the car).

They knew no such thing if the article you linked to is correct. It said that she’d cleared “the driver’s side front”, which leaves room for weapons to be found anywhere else in the car. Plus her search was somewhat quick and furtive, as she was also checking to see if anyone was lying in the back seat and searching for the location of the vehicle’s owner, who was reported to be nearby at the side of the road. It’s quite possible she felt he was going for a weapon she missed or that was located somewhere else in the car.

@iiandyiiii

And “potentially threatening” behavior shouldn’t be enough to be killed over.

On this we can agree. I’ve said so several times in this thread already.

@iiandyiiii

Bullshit. There are real people with real terror of the police. You might not consider it legitimate, but there are millions of Americans who, due to their own personal experiences and those of their families, see the police as potentially deadly enemies, and not as helpful allies.

Assuming this little bit of overblown hyperbole is correct, how exactly does it refute what I said about the media?

@iiandyiiii

That’s a serious problem and that’s why there is so much trouble and protesting. And most of the protesting is not violent at all.

Most encounters between the police and black people aren’t violent either. It’s the ones that are which are the problem, and there have been plenty of violent incidents attendant to these protests, whether ‘most’ of them have been violent or not.

@iiandyiiii

Because compliance is easily said but that’s it. When a bunch of people are yelling (and potentially yelling contradictory orders), and you’re in incredible bone-shaking terror for your life, compliance can be nigh impossible.

And so the natural reaction when being confronted by these powerful, terrifying, potentially deadly bullies is to defy them and refuse to obey their commands and in some cases fight with or struggle against them? If I were a black person I’d be insulted that you think black people are so stupid as to react to their fear in this way.

@iiandyiiii

If a bunch of plain clothes guys grab you when you did nothing but sell cigarettes on the street, then it’s not at all surprising if you react with fear and resistance.

Is a little honesty too much to ask for here? They didn’t just walk up and jump on him out of the blue. They accused him of selling cigarettes from packs without a tax stamp (i.e., stolen). He denied that he was selling cigarettes at all and stated he was tired of being hassled. Then as the officer attempted to put Garner’s hand behind his back to cuff him, Garner began to struggle. It was at this point that the other officers joined in to subdue him.

@iiandyiiii

These reactions shouldn’t be enough for deadly force unless there is absolutely imminent threat of serious harm, and in a lot of these cases, that imminent threat hasn’t been shown at all.

Again, we are in agreement on this point. But the problem is with how the police are trained to perceive and react to threat, and it’s the training that needs to be changed as opposed to villainizing the officers who have internalized these potential threats as actual threats because that’s what they’ve been taught.

[Starving_Artist]

@iiandyiiii

If the Charlotte shooting dashcam and bodycam videos showed that the dead man was holding and pointing a gun, I can’t imagine that they wouldn’t have released it. That they haven’t released it at the very least suggests that it may not show the cops’ actions in a good light.

“At the very least”? Hardly. It may simply be that the videos are inconclusive and subject to interpretation by both sides.

[Hooleehootoo]

@Starving_Artist

Ariel footage shows that Crutcher had already arrived at the vehicle’s door by the time the other officers arrived. They came running up behind Shelby and didn’t arrive as a group, as some footage of the shooting only might seem to suggest. Shortly after their arrival he lowered his hands and appeared to attempt to open the door of the car and that’s when the taser and the gun were fired.

Aerial video shows Crutcher with his back turned halfway between his car and Shelby’s. Shelby has her gun drawn. 2nd police car is arriving.

Dash-cam shows the second officer arriving before Crutcher reaches his car door. Crutcher looks about even with the rear of his car. He still has his back turned.

The next 2 police arrive 6 sec. later. At this point Crutcher appears to be holding the door handle.

The point is that the situation is not similar to the Dinkheller shooting, because the police present multiple targets and since Crutcher has his back turned when the other officers arrive, he does not know how many and where they are.

[Starving_Artist]

Well, first of all, by posting the Dinkheller incident it wasn’t my intention to draw an equivalence between the two shootings. It was to illustrate one of the reasons why cops are trained not to let people get into their cars. Secondarily, you seemed to wonder why the cops didn’t spread out to surround the guy and/or try to bring him down, and my point was that they arrived too late.

[iiandyiiii]

@Starving_Artist

What would you have had them do, raise their hands, back off and apologize, saying “Oh, sorry, we didn’t know you had brain injury, just come on out whenever you feel up to it. We’ll be over here shooting the breeze and eating ice cream and just let us know when you’re ready to talk”?

Brain injuries don’t exempt you from doing things that hurt or kill people. The police were trying to determine whether he had a gun. They were trying to get him out of the car so they could assess the situation and deal with it safely and correctly. Until they could get the situation under control there was nothing they could do to heed her comments about his brain injury.

I haven’t seen the dashcam and bodycam, so it’s possible there was nothing reasonable they could have done. But according to the news story I just watched, the cops approached him because there were reports he had a weapon. If so, they shouldn’t have approached so close. They should have used their vehicles as cover, to negotiate. And when his wife appeared, they should have related that to him, and maybe they could have resolved it. “Hey, your wife is here. Do you want to talk to her?”

They knew no such thing if the article you linked to is correct. It said that she’d cleared “the driver’s side front”, which leaves room for weapons to be found anywhere else in the car. Plus her search was somewhat quick and furtive, as she was also checking to see if anyone was lying in the back seat and searching for the location of the vehicle’s owner, who was reported to be nearby at the side of the road. It’s quite possible she felt he was going for a weapon she missed or that was located somewhere else in the car.

I think that’s a weak excuse, especially since she was the only one that fired a shot. It’s possible that she thought this, but based on the video and this other evidence, that’s not a reasonable belief, IMO.

On this we can agree. I’ve said so several times in this thread already.

Assuming this little bit of overblown hyperbole is correct, how exactly does it refute what I said about the media?

Because it’s a real story. They’re covering major events that are leading to major disruptions and protests. What is the media reporting that is incorrect or improper?

Most encounters between the police and black people aren’t violent either. It’s the ones that are which are the problem, and there have been plenty of violent incidents attendant to these protests, whether ‘most’ of them have been violent or not.

And so the natural reaction when being confronted by these powerful, terrifying, potentially deadly bullies is to defy them and refuse to obey their commands and in some cases fight with or struggle against them? If I were a black person I’d be insulted that you think black people are so stupid as to react to their fear in this way.

Terrified humans react in unpredictable ways – it has nothing to do with race. “Fight or flight” is a real thing and has nothing to do with race. I’m saying that the terror is real and can’t just be wished or pretended away, and cops should keep in mind that they terrify some people. They should adjust their behavior with this in mind.

Is a little honesty too much to ask for here? They didn’t just walk up and jump on him out of the blue. They accused him of selling cigarettes from packs without a tax stamp (i.e., stolen). He denied that he was selling cigarettes at all and stated he was tired of being hassled. Then as the officer attempted to put Garner’s hand behind his back to cuff him, Garner began to struggle. It was at this point that the other officers joined in to subdue him.

Why couldn’t they try to de-escalate? Why did they have to respond to minor force with greater force? Why couldn’t they back off on this big guy and say “hey man, calm down. We’re calling in backup and we don’t want this to go badly for anyone.” To me they acted like bullies – with the attitude that you must comply perfectly and immediately or else we will beat you down. Not everyone will comply perfectly, and force isn’t necessary for such a minor thing. It’s not like the guy was going to escape! That’s a bullshit attitude, and that’s not how cops in many other countries behave. If they had approached like friends, and not like bullies, Garner wouldn’t have been killed.

And this doesn’t even go into their holding him down when he was crying out that he couldn’t breathe, and then doing nothing in the minutes after he stopped breathing.

Again, we are in agreement on this point. But the problem is with how the police are trained to perceive and react to threat, and it’s the training that needs to be changed as opposed to villainizing the officers who have internalized these potential threats as actual threats because that’s what they’ve been taught.

This isn’t good enough to me. “Just following orders” isn’t an excuse. Bad orders are bad orders and should be disobeyed. I hope I would have disobeyed similarly bad orders when I was in the Navy if I was ever given them. Americans should be held accountable for bad behavior, even if they were “just following orders”. The training should change, sure, but also cops shouldn’t obey bad training and bad orders.

[iiandyiiii]

@Starving_Artist

“At the very least”? Hardly. It may simply be that the videos are inconclusive and subject to interpretation by both sides.

You think if he was holding and pointing a gun it wouldn’t have been released? That it wasn’t makes me suspect (but not certain) that he was not taking any clearly threatening action.

[dasmoocher]

@Starving_Artist

Brain injuries don’t exempt you from doing things that hurt or kill people.

Or, posting on the SDMB, apparently. Aren’t you the cardboard tube pedophile defender?

[Starving_Artist]

@iiandyiiii

Because it’s a real story. They’re covering major events that are leading to major disruptions and protests. What is the media reporting that is incorrect or improper?

One example would be the way they keep trumpeting the lie that Crutcher was shot while holding his hands up. I saw that time after time after time on many national and local news sites the first couple of days or so after he was shot. And one of the first videos on the day it occurred showed Crutcher drop his hands and reach for what appeared to me to be the door handle. Every video I’ve seen since cuts away just before he does that. They want people to think he was shot just for the hell of it or because he was a black guy because it gets views and it gets people enraged about something the media wants them to get enraged about.

@iiandyiiii

Terrified humans react in unpredictable ways – it has nothing to do with race. “Fight or flight” is a real thing and has nothing to do with race. I’m saying that the terror is real and can’t just be wished or pretended away, and cops should keep in mind that they terrify some people. They should adjust their behavior with this in mind.

I’m sure they do when they can. Or at least some of them do. But it depends on the situation. If a black guy gets pulled over for speeding then some effort to put him at ease would be admirable should he appear to be inordinately stressed about it. But if he’s suspected of having a gun, or refusing to obey lawful commands intended to ensure the safety of everyone involved, then it’s time to use force to bring the situation under control.

@iiandyiiii

Why couldn’t they try to de-escalate? Why did they have to respond to minor force with greater force? Why couldn’t they back off on this big guy and say “hey man, calm down. We’re calling in backup and we don’t want this to go badly for anyone.” To me they acted like bullies – with the attitude that you must comply perfectly and immediately or else we will beat you down. Not everyone will comply perfectly, and force isn’t necessary for such a minor thing. It’s not like the guy was going to escape! That’s a bullshit attitude, and that’s not how cops in many other countries behave. If they had approached like friends, and not like bullies, Garner wouldn’t have been killed.

Probably not. And if Garner hadn’t resisted their lawful attempts to put him under arrest he wouldn’t been killed either. And why would they call in backup? There were already several of them there. And there are a couple of reasons why cops don’t back off and try to calm things down once a suspect starts to become physical. One is that one of their partners can be hurt by the aggressive actions of the suspect while they’re trying to back off and de-escalate the situation, and the second is that before long word gets around that you don’t have to obey the police and if you give them enough shit they’ll back off and give you a chance to escape. Remember how in school (and probably with officers in the Navy) how the nice ones got taken advantage of but the strict ones never got much shit? Same thing on the streets. If you have cops start acting like wimps every time someone resists them, it won’t be long until everyone starts to resist them.

@iiandyiiii

This isn’t good enough to me. “Just following orders” isn’t an excuse. Bad orders are bad orders and should be disobeyed.

They aren’t bad orders that should be disobeyed if they aren’t recognized as such. To the police officers being so trained these methods are intended to minimize the chances that the bad guy do harm to them or the public at large. For the most part the training is good and it’s based on tragic experience - as in the case of the Dinkheller shooting I linked to above - but it goes too far when it starts to regard potential threat as genuine threat, and that’s where we are now. But it’s not the fault of the cop on the street who comes to believe in and internalize these teachings, it’s the fault of the ones who decide how they should be trained.

[marshmallow]

Starving Artist, why do American cops kill so many more people than the police in other Western countries?

[elucidator]

Liberals.

[dasmoocher]

@elucidator

Liberals.

As Trump supporters so eloquently put it: Fuk’m (Yeah, I know they can’t spell).

[iiandyiiii]

@Starving_Artist

One example would be the way they keep trumpeting the lie that Crutcher was shot while holding his hands up. I saw that time after time after time on many national and local news sites the first couple of days or so after he was shot. And one of the first videos on the day it occurred showed Crutcher drop his hands and reach for what appeared to me to be the door handle. Every video I’ve seen since cuts away just before he does that. They want people to think he was shot just for the hell of it or because he was a black guy because it gets views and it gets people enraged about something the media wants them to get enraged about.

I haven’t seen this – I’ve seen them say he had his hands up, and then he got shot, but not that he got shot with his hands up. And this “for the hell of it” or “because he was black” is a straw man – BLM and other activists don’t think cops kill black people for the hell of it or because they hate black people; they think cops kill black people because they’re more afraid of them and are jumpier around them; that they place less value on black lives (on average) and are much more likely to think a given black person is dangerous based on racial bias; and similar phenomena that aren’t based on racial hatred (bias is usually not because of hatred).

I’m sure they do when they can. Or at least some of them do. But it depends on the situation. If a black guy gets pulled over for speeding then some effort to put him at ease would be admirable should he appear to be inordinately stressed about it. But if he’s suspected of having a gun, or refusing to obey lawful commands intended to ensure the safety of everyone involved, then it’s time to use force to bring the situation under control.

I think the problem is the bar for using force is much too low. You seem to agree with this – you just don’t think cops should be held responsible, and I do. I want cops to be really, really cautious about deploying force – much more than they are now, and I think fear that they could be imprisoned if they aren’t very cautious about when to use deadly force is part of the solution to make this happen.

Probably not. And if Garner hadn’t resisted their lawful attempts to put him under arrest he wouldn’t been killed either.

This kind of thing becomes self-fulfilling. I think Garner was surprised and upset and jerked his hands, and that was it. That started an escalating cycle of force (cops push/pull harder and he resists to stay on his feet or out of confusion) that the cops could and should have calmed, but chose not to. So a simple split-second not 100% perfect decision (he jerks his hands/arms when they try to cuff him) causes his death.

I think that’s entirely unreasonable, and I think that’s almost entirely the fault of the cops. Garner did not pose any significant threat to anyone.

And why would they call in backup? There were already several of them there. And there are a couple of reasons why cops don’t back off and try to calm things down once a suspect starts to become physical. One is that one of their partners can be hurt by the aggressive actions of the suspect while they’re trying to back off and de-escalate the situation, and the second is that before long word gets around that you don’t have to obey the police and if you give them enough shit they’ll back off and give you a chance to escape. Remember how in school (and probably with officers in the Navy) how the nice ones got taken advantage of but the strict ones never got much shit? Same thing on the streets. If you have cops start acting like wimps every time someone resists them, it won’t be long until everyone starts to resist them.

This is just rationalizing bullying, IMO – it can be used to justify any use of intimidation or force in response to very minor violations. If cops approach as friends, usually they’ll get treated like friends. Occasionally it might go poorly – but I think on average, that approach would result in far fewer injuries and deaths, both for cops and for everyone else.

I get that criminals will see cops as the enemy. But right now, millions of non-criminals see cops as the enemy. The only way for that to change is for the behavior (and policies) of cops to change.

They aren’t bad orders that should be disobeyed if they aren’t recognized as such. To the police officers being so trained these methods are intended to minimize the chances that the bad guy do harm to them or the public at large. For the most part the training is good and it’s based on tragic experience - as in the case of the Dinkheller shooting I linked to above - but it goes too far when it starts to regard potential threat as genuine threat, and that’s where we are now. But it’s not the fault of the cop on the street who comes to believe in and internalize these teachings, it’s the fault of the ones who decide how they should be trained.

I think it is the fault of individual cops, for the reasons I lay out above. I want them held to a very high standard – if this means cops have to be more selective and pay more, then so be it. Common sense should apply – basically, I think the only time deadly force is appropriate is if someone aims a gun, or is charging (and getting close) with a knife, or similar.

[octopus]

The existence of the blue wall of silence ought to be sufficient for the left to distrust the state.

[iiandyiiii]

@octopus

The existence of the blue wall of silence ought to be sufficient for the left to distrust the state.

I think the left, in general, does distrust the state. We just also distrust state and local government, and corporations, and big churches and religious institutions, and we probably distrust these institutions even more than the federal government.

But also, the left and the right distrust and trust the government on different things – right now, it seems that the right trusts the government a lot more in matters of the justice system, and in regulating substance use, and in regulating women’s control of their pregnancies, while the left trusts the government a lot more in regulating businesses, the environment, political advertising, and other things.

[Shodan]

@Rick_Kitchen

When did the police inform him that he was under arrest?

The cops don’t have to say, specifically, “you are under arrest” although they generally do. They simply have to indicate in some reasonable way that you are not free to go. By, for instance, Tasering you, pointing guns at you, and things like that.

You are under arrest when the police, by their words (Halt or I’ll shoot!) or their conduct (grabbing your arms and hurling you into a paddy wagon 1) make it clear that you are not free to leave.

This isn’t the best cite in the world, but it is true nonetheless.

Or this one

Most people think they are arrested when a police officer says “You Are Under Arrest” or puts you in the back of the police car. This is incorrect. An arrest is the act of legal authority taking actual physical custody of a citizen thus causing a restraint on that citizen’s liberty. An arrest occurs when there is a submission to authority causing a seizure of your person.

Regards,
Shodan

[elucidator]

A good rule of thumb is to check and see if there are any recent holes in your person, other than the ones installed at birth, and whether or not your thumb will fit.

Do not make any threatening gestures. Do not make any inflammatory statements or threats, such as “FUCK! I’ve been fucking SHOT!”. Be advised that excessive bleeding may fall under laws prohibiting defacing the public highways and roads, in the event that you survive your encounter with your Public Safety representative.

If your demise appears imminent, make every effort to lie down in a clearly non-aggressive manner. Do not attempt to remain standing by reaching for your car door handle, as this may be interpreted as an effort to rip the door from the car and attack your Public Safety representative. This may result in additional precautionary gunshot wounds.

Always maintain a courteous and obedient rapport with your Public Safety representative. Do not beg, whine, beseech, implore, or cajole, as this implies a lack of confidence. Depending on jurisdiction, your Public Safety representative may have received several minutes of sensitivity enhancement training, which renders their self-esteem vulnerable.

Do not hold any object in either hand that might be mistaken for a weapon, such as a book, wallet, cell phone, pencil, pen, or personal massage device. Do not make any sudden hand movements towards your belt line or under your arm, as these can easily be misunderstood as an effort to reach a holstered weapon rather than a response to your precautionary gunshot wound.

Thank your for your cooperation, citizen, and have a nice day!

[monstro]

I guess this is another case where police officers demonstrate their poor training?

If a doctor killed his patient through carelessness, his/her license would be revoked and they wouldn’t be allowed to practice anymore.

But for some reason, police officers that kill people through fuck-uppery are excused on the basis that their training must be inadequate. And the taxpayer is held accountable by paying for more training that doesn’t change anything, while also shilling out millions of dollars to all the victims.

Meanwhile, these police officers are held up as heroes for whom we all owe our lives to. If we dare to question their actions, we must not love America.

[eschereal]

Well, if it was fuck-uppity, then it was an accident. “Sorry, I did not mean to actually kill the guy.”

[elucidator]

Well, its pretty obvious, isn’t it? Once all those cameras started getting installed, the number of reported incidents seems to have skyrocketed! The police said it was a bad idea, and they were right! We wouldn’t be having these problems otherwise, or at least we wouldn’t have to hear about them!

[eschereal]

Also those fucking internets that spread the videos like some kind of plague.