Or we could go the other way:
Sometimes black people are members of BLM. Sometimes BLM holds marches. Sometimes the marches become protests. Sometimes certain individuals at those protests get violent. Therefore all black people are bad.
It might also be fair to ask which “current movements” center around Americans being killed by their police.
That’s not what you asked me.
Well, it is now!
Where do I say “therefore all black people are bad”?
Are you saying that any criticism of anything that any black people do is a criticism of all black people?
Is that the only possible grievance anyone can have in this country? Are there no other causes that are worth protesting?
It sounds a lot like you are saying “well the police are shooting black men so that excuses rioting and looting” or “if you complain about riots and looting then you are ignoring injustice”
There is injustice to the storeowner when a march turns into a riot and his store gets looted and his family loses its livelihood.
I’m just extending your argument. You say any behavior by anyone associated or not with BLM reflects badly on BLM. So for example if random people not associated with BLM get violent during a BLM march, that reflects badly on BLM. I’m just extending your argument up one level. It’s just as stupid, but maybe a little more obvious what you’re doing.
It sounds like you’re backing off your earlier claim that BLM is especially and uniquely violent, and now you’re just criticizing the small number of violent incidents associated with their protests and accepting that this quality is similar to other movements like the 60s Civil Rights movement (and many other protest movements) that featured occasional (and unfortunate) violence.
If so, good for you for making progress.
Occasional rioting and other forms of violence are negative, but they don’t invalidate the cause of BLM any more than occasional rioting and the like from the Civil Rights movement in the 60s.
Not controversial in the sense of this thread since there is no video and won’t be any newspaper story, but this happened to a dog walking buddy (DWB) of mine three days ago. He told me the story Saturday. DWB is a working class kind of guy. In a trade union. Played football and is no liberal. Likes protection type dogs, Rottweilers, Dobermans and Shepherds. He’s very good at training them.
As he was leaving the park where we meet he saw two young police officers with an even younger man in handcuffs. One of the cops had a choke hold on the handcuffed man and was lifting him off the ground, throttling him.
DWB stopped and asked the cops to ease up on their captive. They told him he was interfering in police business. He replied, and this was smart on his part, that he was helping the officers since they could get into a lot of trouble by harming a handcuffed prisoner.
When the cop eased off, the young man thanked DWB for saving his life to which DWB replied, he didn’t do it for the kid, he did it to help the cops.
On Sunday I followed up with DWB on the races of the cops and the captive. They were all white.
How do you get from what I said to “black people are bad” or are you just trying to call me a racist for criticizing rioting and looting associated with BLM? If you think its racist to criticize BLM, then just say so.
If there is no other movement that is as violent as BLM… If they are the most violent thing going right now… If they are more violent than the TEA PARTY ever was… If we have to go back decades to find this much violence… Then YES, they are especially violent.
This violence did not occurring in a vacuum, the “peaceful” part of the protest is aware of the violence, they use that violence as a threat to get their way.
The small number of incidents? If I ruin the livelihoods of a dozen families, has there been one incident of rioting and looting or a dozen?
They are not historically unique but they are relatively unique at this moment in American history. We have to go back a ways to find similarly violent movements.
I don’t care how pissed off you are or how unjust you think things are. Unless we live in a tyranny as the Tea partiers claim, unless we don’t have representation in government like the revolutionaries, unless our democracy is broken as the Trumpsters profess, there is no excuse for violence and there is no excuse for justifying or excusing violence. We must damn it and if the cost of damning violence is that BLM becomes marginalized, then let that be a lesson to other who would think that violence is a form of speech.
How many of MLKs marches ended in rioting and looting?
Violence doesn’t mean that there aren’t problems but it does undermine the legitimacy of the movement.
Now you’re just trying to frame it in a way that makes it seem especially violent. I could easily find a statement that does the opposite – “though, like the Civil Rights movement led by MLK Jr., BLM protests are marred by occasional violence, it continues a proud tradition of mostly peaceful protesting against brutality and oppression by African Americans, and one can’t help but wonder whether there’s something about law enforcement and American society that creates a backlash to black protests that increase the likelihood of violence…”
There’s been very little violence in the scheme of things – very comparable to the 60s Civil Rights movement. It’s certainly made the news – anything that can be manipulated to make black people look scary is popular in American journalism – but the vast majority of their protests have been peaceful.
Another mind-reader. No, I don’t believe you can read the minds of all peaceful BLM protesters. There are a very small number of assholes, and a much larger number of reasonable and peaceful people with real concerns.
If you think there’s been a large number, then cite. You’ve been saying this for a while like we’re just supposed to accept it without a cite…
The disparity in the violence and other law enforcement mistreatment they are protesting against is unique. You haven’t thrown any numbers out at all, and you’re just asserting over and over again that they’re especially violent. It was trivially easy to find other examples of protest movements with occasional violence.
No one has justified or excused violence except a very small number of assholes. The vast majority of BLM protesters and leaders condemn violence and advocate for peaceful protesting.
You’re insisting that BLM must be marginalized, but it does not have to be. It’s entirely possible to criticize the violence without condemning BLM as a whole, you’re just refusing to do so for no discernible reason. There’s nothing special about this violence, and there’s nothing especially egregious about its association with BLM. That isn’t an excuse – it’s an explanation of why it’s wrong to condemn the entirety of BLM for the actions of a very small number.
How many BLM marches have? Single digits, or a few more, out of thousands? You haven’t provided a single cite to justify your claims of unusual amounts of violence, unless I’ve missed them.
Yes, it harms BLM. But we can still be discerning in our criticism if we choose to be. We don’t have to condemn the entire movement for the actions of a few. Did/Do you condemn the Civil Rights movement as a whole because there were a few violent incidents in the 60s? Do you use the same harsh language to describe that movement as you do for BLM? If not, you’re not being fair to BLM.
Some people live for Tone Policing. It allows them to sit back and condemn anything untidy or unpleasant and write it off without serious thought.
Wouldn’t do to have them have to think about such things.
You’re holding BLM responsible for what other people do that they don’t control. I’m just extending the responsibility. There is literally no difference between what you’re saying and what I’m saying, other than how far back we pull the responsibility curtain.
Except that the violence that marred MLK protests was Bull Connor directing police to attack protesters. The violence that mars BLM protests is BLM marches turning into rioting and looting. Do you really not see the difference between how violence AGAINST protesters doesn’t undermine the legitimacy of the protest while volence BY the protesters does?
Wait, so BLM violence is the fault of police and American society? :smack:
If Trump Rallies or Tea party rallies had devolved into riots and looting, I don’t think you would be so sanguine.
Wait. So you think that the media is trying to demonize BLM, you think that media manipulates the news to make black people seem scary?!?!?! Outside of fox news, I don’t think this is true at all, but riots and looting are actually newsworthy events.
No mind reading necessary. When a leader of the NAACP tells a prosecutor that its on his head if the city burns as a result of his decision not to indict a cop, that is threatening violence to get your way. Or it is a tacit admission that BLM is a violent movement from which we can expect riots and looting.
Wow! You really don’t know? Here are a few links.
“If the city burns, it’s on your hands”
“Dear white people if Trump wins young niggas such as myself are fully hell bent on inciting riots everywhere we go. Just so you know”
How many specific instances do you need to conclude its a problem?
Nothing like BLM, not anytime recently.
And the vast majority of tea partiers condemned racism. Still the racism marred and undermined their movement. To some people it CHARACTERIZED their movement.
It appears my tolerance for rioting and looting is lower than yours. I condemned the tea party for the racism we saw there (even though the tea party actively and physically ejected racists from their midst), it marred their whole movement. I condemn BLM for the violence I see there (even though most of the marchers are not violent looters), it undermines their movement. I think BLM was once a useful movement that has achieved a lot but they jumped the shark when people started anticipating violence during BLM demonstratons.
ONE. One riot would make for an unusual amount of violence but out of the dozens of demonstrations, we have seen more than a couple of riots.
Could the same have been said about the tea party? Or are broader brushes more appropriate there?
Can you point to a couple of MLK demonstration where the protesters and not the police were the source of the violence?
I also don’t know that we had a functional democracy in the south when we had literacy tests, poll taxes and all sorts of other shit that nullified the democratic process as an avenue for redress of grievances.
In what way is the situation today in the same ball park as the situation under folk like Bull Connor?
That’s not extending the analogy in any way shape or form, you are just pulling out the race card bcause I am criticizing a violent protest movement that happens to be black. Unless you think that being black ought to provide immunity from criticism for riots and looting, you are just inserting racism into a conversation where no racism exists because crying racism is a winning tactic on this board.
What makes you think the violence was by protestors, and not by miscreants just taking advantage of the situation? I’ve seen more evidence of protestors decrying the violence and looting than bona fide protesters inciting it. Of course, how are you going to know, they all look alike…