Right. The problem is among some (but not all) American police departments who put the “blue wall” culture as a higher value than honesty, integrity, and the philosophy of “serve and protect”. PDs in many other countries don’t appear to have this problem, so we know it’s not an impossible one to overcome, and not based on some immutable fact of human nature.
Ridiculous? Don’t shoot a guy unless you are sure he has a gun and is pointing it at someone is ridiculous? You’ve got to be kidding me.
Cops SHOULD be held to a higher standard. That’s the result of the greater authority we give them. Really, this is basic elementary school stuff.
…to date.
Yes, it’s obviously ridiculous. On many levels. Not least is the idea that a gun is the only lethal weapon, but more important is your fundamental misunderstanding of what counts as a credible threat. No-one should have to wait until a weapon is drawn to defend themselves, and nor should they be punished for mistaking what an item is, if it’s a mistake that a reasonabel person would make.
To put it very simply, by the time someone has a gun pointed at you and you’ve carefully checked that it is a gun and not, for example, a replica modified to look like a real gun, you’ve been shot and it’s too late. Your standard effectively removes the right to self defence, and is therefore utterly ridiculous.
That jury was presumably full of people like you and manson who don’t believe in the concept of self defence. I’ve repeatedly said that Dunn is rightfully in jail for shooting at the car as it drove away, but for killing the guy who threatened him? No, obviously not.
But then, you’ve made it clear in the past that he was wrong to tell them to turn the music down. You’ve made it clear that you’re in favour of antisocial, aggressive behaviour. You’ve defended Trayvon Martin trespassing and then attacking George Zimmerman, and many other people behaving in a demonstrably criminal fashion - and not a trivial one, either. It really seems like you think Dunn should have let himself be shot, or Zimmerman let himself be beaten, and I find that incomprehensible.
Oh, and this case doesn’t even fall foul of manson’s incredibly high standard - Dunn saw a gun aimed at him. And yet you still say he was in the wrong?
I would hope a reasonable person would be able to tell that “He pull a gun and pointed it at me” is different then “He had a gun in his waistband and looked like he was going to pull it”
Sorry, I’m not one for personal attacks during discussions of a topic, but you are a moron. I’m not going to discuss this topic with you anymore, since you clearly have some mental issues that need looked at, nor do you live in the US, so your opinion on US police procedures is suspect at best, retarded at worst. Go enjoy your life and remain frightened by kids playing loud music or whatever you do. Take care.
There have been too many cases of NO gun. Unarmed people. Gunned down by police - and recorded in video. Some, with their back turned or laying on the ground.
As for "Mr Loud Music, I don’t believe he was threatened. I think he is a liar.
As for Zimmerman, fuck him. He is a no good piece of shit too, who literally got away with murder. He was getting into violent confrontations before he killed someone, and he’s been getting in them SINCE then too.
And as far as Trayvon Martin trespassing, that is an outright lie. Martin was walking down the street when Scumbag stalked him, started shit, and killed him. Zimmernamn deserves to be gunned down himself.
Yes.
…just a reminder that Steophan doesn’t live in a state that has “stand-your-ground” laws. Steophan doesn’t live in a country that allows you to shoot a 'credible threat" in self-defense. Steophan doesn’t even live in a country that allows you to own a handgun except in extraordinary circumstances.
Steophan idolizes the United States. He fetishizes it. But he doesn’t actually live there. Its extraordinary to watch him accuse everyone else of having a “fundamental misunderstanding of what counts as a credible threat” when he doesn’t even understand that what is and isn’t “reasonable” can differ from country to country, and in the case of the United States, from state to state.
I checked out the one that has bothered me most ( if 12 % of killed are innocent it’s OK ) and you are right that you didn’t say innocent, it was unarmed:
Are you out of your mind ?! 12 % is one out of eight !! And that is tolerable in your world. You are a sick person.
With calm respect, you’ve again misstated many of my views – I must again recommend that you not try and say what I’ve said before without cites, because you always get it wrong.
The jury did not believe the child-killer Dunn saw a gun aimed at him, and neither do I. There’s no evidence any other gun was present aside from the child-killer’s testimony (much of which was quite clearly dishonest). Thankfully, the jury didn’t believe him, and the child-killer you repeatedly praised is behind bars.
But . . . but . . he *scairt *me!
/SteophanSpeak
None of those things are true. Yes, they are the things reported in the press before the trial, but they were comprehensively shown to be false during the investigation and trial. Most relevantly, the whole incident took place on private property, so Zimmerman was fully entitled to ask Martin what he was doing there. Martin had the right to be on the private road, as he was travelling to the house he was visiting, but not on the other private properties he trespassed on. Also important is that all the evidence shows that Martin initiated the violence.
That Zimmerman is a bit of a cunt is irrelevant, he has the same right to self defence as anyone else.
A claim you repeatedly make without providing cites… More hypocrisy.
Apologies, you may have forgotten: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=835614
With calm respect, you have said multiple additional untrue things about me without a cite (just a couple more examples):
These things you say about me are uncited and false, and yet you continue.
But it’s okay. I forgive you for repeated untruths about me, since I understand this is driven by terror… The kind of terror that leads you to repeatedly praise the actions of a child killer that resulted in a dead unarmed child and a murder conviction. I’ll just kindly suggest again that it’s not reasonable to repeatedly tell uncited untruths about me, and not reasonable to praise those unarmed child-killing actions as those of someone “who will stand up to bullies and defend themselves against attack”, and “the sort of people normal people want around them”.
I am afraid this has become the Steophan thread.
In Chicago police break in and terrorize family in wrong address raid.
The door is damaged, they ransacked the house and they handcuffed the children.
If the police stop terrorizing the citizens, and we no longer have any of that to talk about, then I will take, as an unhappy consolation, that this thread become Steophan’s playground.
Oops, no danger of that.
Was it Zimmerman’s private property that Martin was on? Because if it wasn’t, why did he care and/or challenge Martin? And how did he know that Martin was trespassing? He could well have had permission to be there.
It was a private community. Good neighbours look our for each other and their property. He asked Martin if he had a right to be there, at which point Martin ran off, then returned and attacked Zimmerman.
Zimmerman had called the police, but unfortunately they didn’t arrive before he was attacked.