From the article:
Bolding mine
Bolding mine
Okay, you pasted a summary of a couple studies purporting to find high rates of “false” rape accusations. The big problem with these kinds of studies is that there is really no way to objectively determine whether any given accusation is actually “false.” Duh, right? It’s a big tipoff when your summary reports literature values ranging from one to ninety percent. But let’s talk a little about the Kanin article (which alleges 41% false out of 109 total accusations).
The Kanin study claims to use the results of polygraph-aided police interrogations of the accusers to determine whether or not their accusations were false, like so: the officers hooked them up to a lie detector and told them they’d be questioned about the usual stuff… relationship with the accused, history of mental illness, previous sexual experience, how many drinks did you have, why did you go to his room, how come you didn’t scream louder, that kind of deal. And, oh yeah, if the machine says you’re lying, we can charge you with filing a false report. About 20% of the subjects recanted before the test even got started and got to go home. The remaining recantations happened during or after the polygraph exam.
Of course, the results of the polygraph tests aren’t referred to or provided, and that’s because they don’t actually matter. Poly results aren’t considered reliable truth indicators in any US criminal court. When the police do a lie detector interrogation on you, they’ve already decided you’re guilty and they’re just trying to get you to admit it. To this end, they utilize a number of tactics specially designed to badger, confuse, and generally lead you into saying exactly what they want to hear.
I don’t know about you, but I’m pretty sure that under those circumstances, I could cajole a recantation out of lots of genuine recent rape victims, who are often on edge and self-blamey even at the best of times. Doubly so if it means I don’t have to fill in any more paperwork tonight.
So, yeah. Trust the Kanin study if and only if you believe most small-town cops possess an uncanny knack for sniffing out truth amidst lies and an unerring commitment to honestly re-evaluating their positions upon receiving new information.
I can’t find a copy of the Air Force-commissioned study to look at, but from what I understand, it bases determination of falsity on a subjective, ad-hoc rubric of how good a performance the accuser seems to be putting on during the investigation. Unless they were able to demonstrate the blinded efficacy of their “liar test” using some kind of known-value control cohort, I don’t know how much credence I can give their results.
It’s simple; if almost no one reports real rapes then the percentage of frauds is going to be much higher than with crimes that people are more likely to report.
That is very silly. Nobody said that “almost no one” reports real rapes. There are tens of thousands of police rape reports in the US every year. That’s not “almost no one.” It’s just much, much lower than the number of total rape incidents as ascertained by CDC surveys.
95% non-reporting is pretty much just that. It seems to me like an attempt to say that “men are all rapists, but you can’t tell because rape is almost never reported”.
If you take issue with the CDC survey methodology, please free to voice your criticisms. Barring your objections, though, it appears that their data corroborates the 95% unreported rape claim.
As always, I would welcome substantive evidence to the contrary, so please don’t hold back on my account.
Of course nobody on this thread has said that all men are rapists. That would be profoundly silly. The studies I have read indicate that only a small fraction of the male subpopulation, usually around 10% or less, will claim on anonymous surveys to have committed sexually coercive acts on others. Most of these respondants further claim to have perpetrated many such acts. Thus it would seem that there is a small fraction of humanity that is responsible for most sexual assaults. This is not unexpected, as it is my understanding that these kinds of bimodal distribution patterns are commonly observed in studies on antisocial behavior.
This really shouldn’t be so hard to see. You undermine your own argument when you make basic errors in logical reasoning.
RAPE is to SEX as THEFT is to CONSENSUAL EXCHANGE OF PROPERTY
To your larger point, I think you weaken your presentation by arguing as if false accusations are the only imperfection in the system. No system of justice is perfect. If you are trly interested in improving teh uality of jusice relative to this specific crime, then you need to consider all of the faults:
[ol][li]false accusations[/li][li]convictions of innocent men[/li][li]guilty rapists being acquited[/li][li]rapists remaining free because they were never taken to trial[/li][li]rapists remaining free because the crime was never reported[/ol][/li]
Now - I haven’t seen anyone offer any particular evidence relative to 2, 3, or 4. Some statistics have been offered relative to 5 (believe them or no - I haven;t seen you indicate what you think the true raes are.) And you have offered some anecdotal evidence that 1 happens.
Granted. Sometimes people accuse others falsely. In and of itself that is insufficient grounds for altering teh criminal justice system.
You would be right, if I was trying to make the argument about false allegations, which I am not, at least not directly. My point was that rape was different from other offences because as the Stern review points out, it is an inherently legal activity (sex) which becomes illegal due to the mental state of the individual involved, which is why it is often so difficult to prove. Now some persons are trying to argue that theft is similar, but while in theory it may be so, I must admit that in my own experience at the Bar, I have seen many cases where we had a he says she says scenario in a rape case, where it was very difficult to ascertain through the evidence if the accused knew or had reason to suspect lack of consent, I have never seen a case of theft where a person claimed it was a gift, I am sure that might occur, but I have not seen it yet.
Again, this is not about how many rape allegations are false, whatever the matrix used to decicde that, just to point out difficulties rape prosecutions face.
Which is one reason why so many rapes go unreported - and probably one of the reasons why their are so many false accusations that we know are false. You frankly need to be both stupid and a bitch to make a false rape allegation - rape isn’t easy to prove, you can get prosecuted for making a false allegation if its proven that you did, going through a rape trial is not easy for the woman. Yes, you can screw up the life of the person you are going after, but you are likely to screw up your own at the same time. And in the end, there probably won’t even be enough evidence to go to trial.
Smarter women weight the risks of the process with the likely outcome - and many decide not to pursue. That creates a situation where predators stay out - sometimes not even realizing that what they thought was “rough consensual sex” was rape.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of dumb bitches out there, and for some reason, they attract men like moths to a flame (sort of like women like bad boys :))
You tend to see that more in thefts labeled embezzlemet or fraud, though it may be phrased differently than “it was a gift” the essential element is a discrepancy between what one party says was agreed to and the actions taken by the other party. Questions of intent and consent are not unique to rape, neither is rape the only crime prosecuted without corroborating eyewitnesses. If those are the foundations for an argument that rape prosecutions are more unjust than other prosecutions then it is a flimsy argument indeed.
I’ve been violently assaulted a few times. The first time I got stabbed with a needle and reported it to the police. Wasn’t impressed by their response. Didn’t even take my shirt, which was covered in blood. Didn’t report any of the other assaults.
The Innocence Project and company find rape to be the crime they most frequently exonerate people of. There’s no reasonable doubt that rape is disproportionately likely to be the subject of a false accusation. Which has nothing to do with legitimate victims, of course. It’s just a really damaging thing to accuse someone of.
What exactly would you want done? I mean, the police have to take a statement. Then you have to testify in court, those things are indispensible. The police already get training. I don’t see how it can be made any easier to report. It’s always going to be difficult.
Not long ago I was watching a debate between a feminist and anti-feminist on youtube. A young man in the audience was saying how outrageous it was that marital rape wasn’t counted as rape as recently as the early nineties, but had to be prosecuted as something else. The anti-feminist pointed out that presumably that also meant wives could rape their husbands. No-one pointed out that a woman still can’t be prosecuted for raping a man even today.
Personally, I feel like the response to women being raped that “but women can rape men too!” to be wholly inadequate bordering on offensive. Yes it’s possible. It’s not in any way occurring in proportions that come close to male-on-female rape. It’s ridiculous that all discussions of sexual violence against women is bogged down by this insane discussion about why more women aren’t being prosecuted for rape too, and by the way, false rape accusations!!! If you went to report the crime of female-on-male rape, and someone found your assertion difficult to believe, perhaps you’d have a fraction of the understanding of what those who feel uncompelled to report their rapes go through.
Having looked at that link, it specifically says that more women who were victims of “completed rape” considered themselves not to have been victims of rape than thought they had been raped. It also counts up women who have been groped into the figures. So how many of that 95% really “respond[ed] that they were victims of completed or attempted rape”, and how many had those words put in their mouths?
Wait. Why is this offensive? It’s a well-known fact that men can be raped too. Males aren’t excluded from being able to report rape. If someone is raped, they should be able to report it regardless of gender.
False rape accusations happen, and they have been happening for quite sometime now.
Perhaps interesting. By how much? Is it a statistically significant deviation? Is there a smapling bias (how many exonerations are based upon DNA evidnece - what persentage of cases by crime category have DNA evidence available for testing years after the fact, etc.?) This might have a chance to become something more compelling than an anecdote.
I disagree. Why don;t you try to formulate an argument that supports your assertion?
Anecdote, anecdote, assertion is not a form of rhetoric that I find compelling when discussing the behavior of a system as large and complex as criminal justice.
There’s no reasonable doubt that rape is disproportionately likely to be the subject of a false accusation.
In some cases, all the training in the world will not overcome some police officers’ conviction that rape is at least partially the woman’s fault. Or the belief that there are a lot of false rape accusations.
For instance, I’d hate to be a rape victim who tried to report the attack to someone with your attitude towards women and rape. I think that your assumption would be that it would be a false accusation, and that I’d have to have overwhelming evidence in order to convince you to even take the report and act upon it. And let’s face it, an officer can pursue a case with zeal, or s/he can find other cases to work on and put a rape case on the back burner.
I think its people with attitudes such as yours who perhaps unwittingly do the most harm to rape victims. Rape is a serious crime and like all serious crimes (say murder, major firearm offences, kidnapping terrorism etc) police have little discretion is investigating the matter; which they might have in other cases. In my own experience investigating officers are usually highly sensitive and conscientiousness to the victims and try to minimise the impact on them. Going out and making up stories about police officers only serves to limit reportage of rape.
I’m not the one who is doing harm to rape victims: http://cryrapebook.com/ Anger over rape case jailing of Powys woman - BBC News . I’m glad that you know officers who take rape seriously, and don’t assume that any woman who was raped was asking for it. But read that Cry Rape book.
It is good that your experiences with police have been so positive. Indeed, police attitudes towards rape complainants have improved dramatically in the past 20 years. Things are still far from perfect, however. Although police today are probably gentler in their treatment of alleged rape victims than they have been in the past, there is considerable evidence that these allegations are not investigated as thoroughly as other complaints.
See the 2009 incident in Detroit where the police crime lab was discovered to have been warehousing the untested results of over 11,000 rape kits, some dating back 15 years. Thousands of assault victims were told that these DNA samples collected from their bodies would be sequenced and run against a database of known offenders. It probably made them feel a little better, but it was, shall we say, a bit of a fib.
On a lighter note, the scandal did cause the shutdown and reformation of the Detroit police lab, which almost certainly would not have happened twenty years ago. About a tenth of the samples have now been processed, leading to several new assault convictions. So that’s nice. If this is the way that prosecutors hope to increase rape conviction rates, I must say I don’t really have any issues with it. Specifically what measures are there that you object to? I still haven’t seen any examples. 
I’m sorry. That must’ve been scary.
This is in direct response to the OP in which you oppose anything that could increase rape convictions. One of the things that does that is making the reporting of rape slightly less uncomfortable. In my case, having heating at the station would’ve been nice! (Yeah, I know, it’s nothing to do with rape in particular. It’s just… I had just been violently assaulted. I had to stay there for hours in the cold. Nobody was nice to me or anything. No cup of tea, nobody asked if I was ok.) I wasn’t interviewed by a woman, which I didn’t mind but others might. I didn’t have to face the guy in court, which I guess was nice, but could be crucial to others.
I get that you need the questions and that that will never be fun. But there is a lot done to make it slightly more comfortable to report rape and sexual assault. In the OP you said you were against that. I doubt there is much evidence either way, but why would false accusations increase as a result of victims not having to face their rapists in court? Crazy people decide to falsely accuse innocent people, I doubt having to see them in court would deter them.
Look, it’s sad that people are wrongly accused of rape. But it is not the big problem we are facing wrt rape. The big problem is that people don’t report rape. If there are two options:
- make it easier to report to help victims
- don’t make it easier to report to help the possibly wrongly accused
Well, I know the one I’m going with.