convincing evidence destroying a cherished belief

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I want to know what it feels like to have to accept evidence which convinces you that a cherished belief is not valid.

I just watched a TV series by Bill Bryson based on his book, Notes From a Small Island, in which he comments that the suicide rate among the British clergy jumped when Darwin’s On The Origin of Species was published. He said that many clergy were the nauturalists of the time and in a stronger position to understand Darwin’s argument than most others. Do any Dopers know if this was a throw away line, or if it is based on fact? If the latter, I’d love a cite. I couldn’t find any reference to it in his Short History of Nearly Everything.

What does it feel like to have to face convincing evidence which challenges a cherished belief? Have any Dopers faced this issue, religious or otherwise?

Lynne

2

I spent quite a few years when I was young and gullible longing for The Truth. I joined a church/cult, and I remember quite clearly when the exact moment came and I suddenly knew that it was all lies upon lies. My life changed drastically after that. It wasn’t often easy, trying to think without the “facts” intruding, but now I only have occasional minor pangs of anger at having been so completely duped

For the record, I read my bible and have my own beliefs, and as long as I can look in the mirror and see no shame, I’m good to go.

3

I used to be a young earth creationist; in all honesty, letting go of this set of beliefs - cherished as they were - was an enormous relief, which I have likened to climbing/being pulled out of a dark hole in the ground.

Having to maintain a stance that was so sharply at odds with such a huge weight of evidence, and having to scratch around for ways and means to deny, deflect or ignore it all was not only very hard work, it was bitterly unrewarding; taking refuge behind layer upon layer of argument, denial and obfuscation was like willingly retreating into a grimy dungeon and watching the daylight world slip further and further beyond reach.

4

Thank you for such interesting, eloquent and honest responses. They are much appreciated.

If you get a chance, I would love to know if, when you left the belief, leaving the social group which shared that belief meant a loss of something precious, such as a break with family or close friends.

For some of my friends, the social group around their church is more important to them than the actual belief system. I imagine that if the belief is very strong, then there is a double loss, although from what you both say, it is more anger and a sense of freedom than the sense of loss I imagined.

Did you then argue with those who held the belief you had rejected, or just walk away?

Lynne

5

I don’t think I’ve come across the claim before, which makes me dubious about it being true. This is because a) if it were true, then I’d expect to have encountered it and b) while an entertaining writer, Bryson has a track record of sloppily including false claims in his books simply a factoid makes a good story.
Robert Fitzroy, the captain of the Beagle, did kill himself in the years following Darwin publishing the Origin and it has certainly been suggested that a conflict between his strong Anglican faith and what the voyage had led to contributed to this. But there were plenty of other factors, including a family history of suicide. Still, Bryson may be passing on a garbled version of those events. More likely, however, is that it’s simply one of those claims that people somehow expect to be true.

[Incidentally, in checking via Google to find if there were people out there making the claim, I came across this Baha’i page that claims that Darwin’s father killed himself. A “very rarely noticed event” certainly - including by the family members and servants who watched the extremely obese 82-year-old Dr Darwin’s health gradually decline over a period of time before his entirely expected and unremarkable death. Not quite in bed, but he did peacefully expire while sitting in an armchair.
Though one of Robert Darwin’s elder brothers did commit suicide.]

6

There was no need to leave the church when I discarded YEC - I didn’t discard my faith, I just stopped trying to hang it upon things that were demonstrably false (I expect there are those who would nitpick me on this and say that any basis for faith is demonstrably false).

I have tried debating it with those who hold the belief, but never to any great effect; I honestly think that my abandoning creationism was inevitable; I am by nature an inquisitive person; I was always going to keep on poking at it until it fell apart, but not everyone is like that; some people prefer certainty (or the illusion of it) to truth; arguing with them just hurts and never really works.
Those that will come out of it will probably do so anyway, without my involvment (although I’ll help if I see a specific need) and those who don’t want to come out of it wont, no matter what I do or say, so there’s not a lot of point arguing (although sometimes, I can’t resist).

7

I’m confused by the OP. How did this assertion change your beliefs? Or are you talking about the clergy?

I’m pretty skeptical of the claimed fact, because evolution as a notion was around for some time before Darwin published an explanation of it. It’s not like Darwin would have pulled the rug out from under the clergy, especially the naturalist ones. After all, was it the naturalist clergy who were killing themselves?

8

When I had my defining moment I was actually in church, moving from a class into the Sunday meeting. I remember turning around, walking out, and never going back.

That does not mean that it was an easy thing to stay away. The church members were my family, as my blood family was insane, 'nuff said there, at least for now. I did not argue with members of the church, but I have had many discussions with other clergy (mainstream Christianity) as well as with other former members of the church, and with my step father, who is a good source of theology.

The church had taken almost all of my non-school/work time, and between responsibilities and social functions I had no other social life. It has been difficult to redefine my social life, although I left the church almost 30 years ago.

I have been very angry at times, but have found online support groups (specifically two) where I have found strength in people who have had similar experiences to mine.

While I have a very strong belief in Christianity, I generally keep my beliefs to myself, and do the best I can to simply live a life in keeping with my understanding of the scriptures. If asked point blank what I believe in, I share, but other than that I believe that my actions should speak my beliefs far stronger than any words.

9

I believed that my husband and I shared a relationship that was based on trust, openness and honesty. That we would allow nothing to come between us. I had that belief for 12 years. Then he told me he was a drug addict.

We are still together, he is now clean. Our family is intact. What is gone? My belief that I can even begin to know anyone. Besides all the feelings you would expect in a revelation like this, now, more than ever I have an empty feeling, alone. I realized how little I actually knew him. How different he was than what I thought. My absolute faith in him is gone and a cruel cynicism has replaced it.

I want to know people, not the shallow “I’ll show you what I think you will accept.” but really know. The hopes, the dreams, the fears. I’d really like to think I know it about my husband, but I don’t.

Emily Dickensen said it best:

After great pain a formal feeling comes–
The nerves sit ceremonious like tombs;
The stiff Heart questions–was it He that bore?
And yesterday–or centuries before?

The feet, mechanical, go round
A wooden way
Of ground, or air, or ought,
Regardless grown,
A quartz contentment, like a stone.

This is the hour of lead
Remembered if outlived,
As freezing persons recollect the snow–
First chill, then stupor, then the letting go.

I feel more and more like a child who has just found out there is no Santa Claus. I feel broken. I feel isolated. I lack faith that I have a real connection with anyone. For if not with him, with who?

I hope I get it back. It sucks not having it.

10

Sorry about the confusion. My beliefs weren’t changed by Bill Bryson - I gathered the naturalist clergy were, or so I understood. But it may have been a throw away line by him, not a serious contention.

I am interested in the effect of contradictory evidence or opinons which someone finds convincing and forces them to change their minds on something which is very important to them. My interest is in their personal emotional response. I have changed my mind on a lot of things over the years, but usually gradually - and usually to do with my profession, rather than religious beliefs.

I am becoming skeptical of the claim and therefore of taking the comment seriously. I have read a great deal about the Darwin era in the research for a book I just finished writing, and didn’t come across this. As no-one here seems to have heard of it either, I would say it was a joking aside and not a statement of fact.

Thanks for the responses. I have found them very interesting.

Lynne

11

Wow kaiwik and Auntbeast - these are really moving examples of what I was thinking about.

kaiwik if you ever want to expand on this I would be really keen to hear it. (I am taking the clue from you saying " 'nuff said there, at least for now.") I have no desire to judge anyone’s beliefs, it is how you can cope with a sudden loss or disillusionment. It seems to have been very sudden for you, so if you feel comfortable saying so, I’d really like to know what could have happened to have caused such a profound and sudden reaction.

Auntbeast - this is an aspect I had never considered at all, yet fits the pattern exactly. It sounds as if it was also very recent. I really got the feeling of devastating loss, even though superficially you haven’t lost anything as the marriage is still intact. I do hope it is very recent and time does a great healing job.

Off my own topic:
Mangetout I went to your Bird Box Webcam Project and was blown away by it. I am wanting to do something similar here with possum boxes just put up, and the big dream, into spider holes. Is there a thread already on what you are doing? if so, can you point me to it? If not, can I start one?

Lynne

12

OK, Lynne, let me be bold:

Santa doesn’t bring all those presents all by himself; parents help him.

Schools that claim to be very open and helpful to “atypical students” (for example, to people who study part-time in the same uni where they work full-time) aren’t necessarily so.

Schools that claim to have a very stron multidisciplinary focus often wouldn’t recognize multidisciplinary if it kicked their arse.

Companies that claim you’ll work “flexible hours” mean that your hours will stretch and stretch and streeeeetch but never get back to their original shape.

Everybody has faced this, in some form or other. Of course, by the time you’re told about flexible hours you’re usually jaded enough to recognize its actual meaning.