Copper Pipe Contains Lead?

[ralph124c]

Home plumbing has gotten complicated… it is now illegal to use lead/tin solder on water supply pipes, because of the possibility of lead leaching into the drinking water. Now, I understand that the copper pipes themslves contain about 1% lead (added to make the copper more ductile). Does this pose a hazard to humans? Are we better off with plastic pipes?

[GaryM]

Can’t answer about the lead content of the copper, but if I were doing a plumbing job from scratch, PEX is the way to go. PEX

Of course it’s not practical to use it for a small repair, but for remodeling or a new rough in it would be great. No sweated connections or elbows to install. I happened to be in Lowe’s tonight and the plumbing guy mentioned that 100’ roll of PEX is about the same price of three 10’ sections of copper.

[Sal_Ammoniac]

@ralph124c

Now, I understand that the copper pipes themslves contain about 1% lead (added to make the copper more ductile).

Is that really true? I’ve never heard that. Brass, on the other hand…

[gotpasswords]

Copper water pipes are lead-free:

@www.copper.org

Copper pipe is almost pure copper manufactured to the requirements of ASTM B 42 - Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Pipe, Standard Sizes. It may be manufactured from any of five (5) copper alloys (C10200, C10300, C10800, C12000, C12200) that all conform to the chemical composition requirements of alloys containing a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu) and a maximum of 0.04% Phosphorous (P).

(from http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/tpf_stds/tube_pipe_stds.htm)

Current requirements are for the use of lead-free solder, but there are countless homes where the plumbing was put together with lead-bearing solder. The “problem” is that copper pipe is nearly eternal, lasting for decades. Disassembling it all and re-building with lead-free solder is unlikely to ever happen.

As for PEX, sure, it’s great stuff if it’s allowed by your local code. Last I looked, it was still forbidden in California, per the California Plumbing Code.

[Carson_O_Genic]

Leaded solders for potable water connections have been proscribed for at least a decade.The lead leaches in acidic conditions.Many domiciles also contain brass;threaded nipples and water meters are typically made of it.
Whether an alloy containing same would leach is an interesting question.The EPA considers stainless steels to be hazardous due to the chromium content yet most peoples cutlery is made of it.
There are debates regarding suitability of most domestic piping materials be it their effect on water quality or toxicity in the event of combustion.Copper rates pretty well.

[GaryM]

@gotpasswords

Copper water pipes are lead-free:
(from http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/tpf_stds/tube_pipe_stds.htm)

Current requirements are for the use of lead-free solder, but there are countless homes where the plumbing was put together with lead-bearing solder. The “problem” is that copper pipe is nearly eternal, lasting for decades. Disassembling it all and re-building with lead-free solder is unlikely to ever happen.

As for PEX, sure, it’s great stuff if it’s allowed by your local code. Last I looked, it was still forbidden in California, per the California Plumbing Code.

Must be a strong union state! I remember an episode of This Old House where they were working in San Francisco and they mentioned that all the plumbing had to be copper. I may be misremembering, but I think they even meant the DWV piping.

[Harmonious_Discord]

Copper is poisonous too.

[CalMeacham]

Harmonius Discord writes:

Copper is poisonous too.

Don’t just make a blanket statement like that and leave it there. Especially one as counterintuitive as that. Considering that copper pipe continues to be used (and there are no calls for tearing out the old stuiff and replacing it with plastic), you can’t believe that people are going to accept that statement uncritically.
From the Wikipedia page on Copper:

[edit] Biological role

Rich sources of copper include oysters, beef or lamb liver, Brazil nuts, blackstrap molasses, cocoa, and black pepper. Good sources include lobster, nuts and sunflower seeds, green olives, and wheat bran.Copper is essential in all plants and animals. Copper is carried mostly in the bloodstream on a plasma protein called ceruloplasmin. When copper is first absorbed in the gut it is transported to the liver bound to albumin. Copper is found in a variety of enzymes, including the copper centers of cytochrome c oxidase and the enzyme superoxide dismutase (containing copper and zinc). In addition to its enzymatic roles, copper is used for biological electron transport. The blue copper proteins that participate in electron transport include azurin and plastocyanin. The name “blue copper” comes from their intense blue color arising from a ligand-to-metal charge transfer (LMCT) absorption band around 600 nm.

Most molluscs and some arthropods such as the horseshoe crab use the copper-containing pigment hemocyanin rather than iron-containing hemoglobin for oxygen transport, so their blood is blue when oxygenated rather than red.[19]

It is believed that zinc and copper compete for absorption in the digestive tract so that a diet that is excessive in one of these minerals may result in a deficiency in the other. The RDA for copper in normal healthy adults is 0.9 mg/day. On the other hand, professional research on the subject recommends 3.0 mg/day.[20] Because of its role in facilitating iron uptake, copper deficiency can often produce anemia-like symptoms. In humans, the symptoms of Wilson’s disease are caused by an accumulation of copper in body tissues.
[edit] Toxicity
All copper compounds, unless otherwise known, should be treated as if they were toxic. Thirty grams of copper sulfate is potentially lethal in humans. The suggested safe level of copper in drinking water for humans varies depending on the source, but tends to be pegged at 1.5 to 2 mg/L. The DRI Tolerable Upper Intake Level for adults of dietary copper from all sources is 10 mg/day. In toxicity, copper can inhibit the enzyme dihydrophil hydratase, an enzyme involved in haemopoiesis.[citations needed]

Pretty cute. The minimum level of copper intake, according to some, is 3.0 mg/day, while the maximim intake, according to others, is 10 mg/day. That’s a pretty narrow range.

Copper

But we’re still here, despite all the copper in my house. I think a little more research is called for.

[Rocketeer]

@GaryM

Can’t answer about the lead content of the copper, but if I were doing a plumbing job from scratch, PEX is the way to go. PEX

Of course it’s not practical to use it for a small repair, but for remodeling or a new rough in it would be great. No sweated connections or elbows to install. I happened to be in Lowe’s tonight and the plumbing guy mentioned that 100’ roll of PEX is about the same price of three 10’ sections of copper.

I personally don’t trust plastic tubing under high pressure with slip-on connectors. If I ever build a house, it’ll be copper hot and cold and black plastic drains.

Besides, sweating copper pipe connections is fun.

[Harmonious_Discord]

You can be poisoned by copper from pipes as well as the lead under the same environmental conditions. My remark was a reminder, because I thought this widely known. I guess not.

Washington Division of Health

In Washington, most copper in drinking water comes from corrosion of household plumbing. Public water supplies are required to conduct treatment to reduce corrosion when more than 10 percent of the tap water samples exceed 1.3 parts per million (ppm) of copper.

Copper from plumbing corrosion can accumulate overnight. Flushing the water from the tap for 30 to 45 seconds can reduce the copper that can accumulate when the household plumbing is not in use.

Wisconsin Department of Resources.

High levels of copper occur if corrosive water comes in contact with copper plumbing and copper-containing fixtures in the water distribution system. If corrosive water remains motionless in the plumbing system for six hours or more, copper levels may exceed 1,000 ug/l. The level of copper in drinking water increases with the corrosivity of the water and the length of time it remains in contact with the plumbing.

Since lead and copper enter drinking water under similar conditions, it is advisable to test for lead when testing for copper.

The U.S. EPA promulgated National Primary Drinking Water Standards for lead and copper on June 7, 1991. These standards are applicable to all public water systems, and require them to begin monitoring for lead and copper at consumer taps no later than July, 1993. If the EPA action level of 1,300 ug/l for copper is exceeded, the utility must conduct further testing to determine if the corrosivity of the water is contributing to an increase in the copper levels. They are also required to implement optimum corrosion control measures to reduce the corrosivity of the water to acceptable levels. If you have questions regarding copper monitoring, contact your water utility.

[GaryM]

@Rocketeer

I personally don’t trust plastic tubing under high pressure with slip-on connectors. If I ever build a house, it’ll be copper hot and cold and black plastic drains.

Besides, sweating copper pipe connections is fun.

I can’t believe Richard Trethewey would steer me wrong about PEX! :smack:

Working with copper is OK, done it many times. But if I’m paying some fellow $60 an hour to do a rough in and he can cut his time in half and my materials cost by one third, I’m interested.

[gotpasswords]

@GaryM

Must be a strong union state! I remember an episode of This Old House where they were working in San Francisco and they mentioned that all the plumbing had to be copper. I may be misremembering, but I think they even meant the DWV piping.

Yep. Even the sewers have to be copper or cast iron, especially in commercial buildings. Trade union interference leaves us unable to use modern and/or DIY-friendly materials here, and it’s not limited to plumbing. For wiring, Romex is not very well thought of, and what would be more sensible in earthquake territory than flexible gas plumbing inside the walls? But no, we’re stuck with black steel that snaps in a strong quake.

And 2" copper is just breathtakingly expensive. :eek:

[GaryM]

@gotpasswords

Yep. Even the sewers have to be copper or cast iron, especially in commercial buildings. Trade union interference leaves us unable to use modern and/or DIY-friendly materials here, and it’s not limited to plumbing. For wiring, Romex is not very well thought of, and what would be more sensible in earthquake territory than flexible gas plumbing inside the walls? But no, we’re stuck with black steel that snaps in a strong quake.

And 2" copper is just breathtakingly expensive. :eek:

I do remember them commenting on the cost. This was a church being converted to residential. Due to the proximity of adjoining structures they either had to install a sprinkler system or install glass with embedded wire mesh. As I recall, they went with the sprinkler system even though the expense of the copper was quite steep.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@ralph124c

1% lead (added to make the copper more ductile)

Copper is already among the most ductile metals.

[Rick]

@gotpasswords

Yep. Even the sewers have to be copper or cast iron, especially in commercial buildings. Trade union interference leaves us unable to use modern and/or DIY-friendly materials here, and it’s not limited to plumbing. For wiring, Romex is not very well thought of, and what would be more sensible in earthquake territory than flexible gas plumbing inside the walls? But no, we’re stuck with black steel that snaps in a strong quake.

And 2" copper is just breathtakingly expensive. :eek:

Actually in residential galvanized was used in the vent and horizontal runs in California. It changes to Cast iron at the stack. There is plenty of plastic DVW bit and pieces available at your local big box store. to the best of my knowledge this is legal for use in residential.
I converted all the drains in my house (up to the stack) to plastic about 13 years ago, and I love it.

[danceswithcats]

@Rocketeer

I personally don’t trust plastic tubing under high pressure with slip-on connectors. If I ever build a house, it’ll be copper hot and cold and black plastic drains.

Besides, sweating copper pipe connections is fun.

Sorry you feel that way. Uponor/Wirsbo PEX and Aquapex have over 30 years service in the US, and longer in Europe.

ABS for drain is great, but PVC is more widely used in many areas, and is less expensive.

[Kevbo]

Look for an NSF or NSF-61 mark on the pipe, fittings, faucets, solder, flux, etc. To carry this mark, the item must be tested not to leach any known toxins into drinking water.