I went on the job in '82 as a Deputy for the most populated county in the state. Those were the days of the stupid double nickel. In our county then as now the judges wouldn’t convict unless the violation was 13 over. So you could cruise at 65 in a 55 and still have a buffer. We had a contract with the state to have a dedicate highway unit. So State patrol did not actively patrol the county though they of course still had authority to write tickets there if they were driving through the county.
It’s a Daisy Chain, not a sting. And a Cessna was usually utilized. VASCAR was used in the aircraft.
Officers would be lined up on acceleration ramps. The plane could be half a mile away from the target vehicle and would radio to squads a description and speed clocked. Poor bastards would get pulled over for speeding and have no clue as to why their Fuzzbuster didn’t say a peep.
When the speed limit was 65 here every Deputy and Trooper I know wouldn’t pull a car over unless it was going 80. Now that the limit is 70 every Deputy and Trooper I know doesn’t pull a car over unless it’s going 80
Well yes, it IS idiotic. And definitely not part of any driver’s ed class, anywhere. If you are referring to the driver’s ed class of experience and common sense, then yes, within reason one needs to consider the pace of traffic, but not be a slave to it, or use it as a justification for some perceived necessity to break the speed limit.
Well, yes, you actually are. A 10 mph differential should be no problem for anyone, even those exceeding the speed limit by 10 mph.
True, “lone wolf” speeders tend to attract the most attention. However, the notion that if one is “travelling with the pack” in excess of the speed limit somehow grants immunity to a citation is ridiculous. Been there, done that, seen it happen many times to others… It simply isn’t true. Regardless of what the other guy was doing, if your number is up, you’re busted.
Conversely, since they view themselves as a deterrent to speeding, when everyone else slows down… Those who don’t will probably be singled out for a ticket.
I didn’t say ‘be a slave to it’. I specifically gave an example where you wouldn’t keep up with somebody way over the speed limit. But otherwise you’ve just rephrased what I said. If driver’s ed says to factor in the flow of traffic, which it absolutely did when I took it, that’s saying it could be a reason to go over the posted speed limit to at least some degree. If the rule was never go over the speed limit, that would contradict the idea of taking the flow of traffic into account, except if you were going to specifically limit it to a reason to go *under the speed limit.
A 10 mph speed differential isn’t necessarily highly unsafe, but it’s less safe than none. You are safest finding a space between ‘packs’ of traffic and staying there, with other cars very close to you as little as possible. Within common sense and considering other factors like road conditions, the safest speed might be over the speed limit.
3, 4. As I said, having driven 43 yrs with one automated camera speeding ticket, and giving the moderate emphasis to staying exactly at speed limits I’ve laid out, my experience is different. And it’s definitely dangerous at the margin to hit the brakes just because you see a cop car. As in 2 would that necessarily cause an accident each time? no. Is it the safest practice? no.
I think the basic flaw in your argument is saying ‘the speed limit is what it is’ without any quantification. Your argument calls for quantification. My argument doesn’t as much, but to help have a reasonable discussion I’ll specify I mean generally within the usual ~7 at least mph understood margin, unless a lot of people are overtaking me further above than that, but never eg. 30 above; or I’ve gone that fast but of course wouldn’t expect ‘immunity’ when doing so. But overall the way I’ve actually driven, immunity from speeding tickets? yeah pretty much.
Corry El: Suffice it to say I’ve been driving approximately the same years as you, and when I received my license, there was no such thing as driver’s ed.:eek: Shortly thereafter, yes… So I admit I simply feel no driver’s ed curriculum would state that exceeding posted speed limits is OK based upon local drivers’ notions. Call me crazy, but I feel (with no cite) my perspective is probably true.
Sure, I speed on a regular basis. However, I never cease to be amazed by people who feel “justified” in exceeding posted limits because the traffic flow “demands” it… One chooses their vehicular speed, one is not required to intentionally exceed the posted limit for safety’s sake. That is simply inane. Don’t confuse the* desire* to speed, with a perceived necessity to do so.
Does anybody remember the movie "The Oklahoma Kid " which i believe may have been Martin Sheen’s first starring role?
He gets pulled over by the sheriff for going 2 mph over the limit and shows that the sheriff’s vehicle’s speedometer is inaccurate because it’s fitted with the wrong tyres .
How satisfying would that be …
EDIT oops , it wasn’t “The Oklahoma Kid” … need to find out the correct name …
The black and white speed limit signs are set by statute (such as the 55mph or 65mph maximum limit here in California based on road configuration). Other speed limits are set based on a speed zone survey which looks at the 85%.
The yellow and black curve warning signs are set based on ball bank readings in a test vehicle, and are unrelated to the 85%. Oddly, there’s no criteria for the test vehicle. I could ball bank in a Corvette or a Hummer if I wanted, but usually it’s a sedan.
As a side note, the criteria by which curve warning signs are determined is changing, and when I’ve resigned curves it’s not uncommon to see the speed go up by 5mph.
I can confirm that driver’s ed teaches you to go ast the speed of traffic. A kid in my car tried to just go the speed limit, and the instructor explained this to us. If you need to slow down, you can only do so by keeping up with traffic first and then gradually slow down.
No one keeps the required car lengths in the real world, so chugging along slowly is a way to get hit.
That (unsafe following distances) leads to a LOT more accidents than simple speeding, judging by the wrecks I see (almost invariably they ostensibly are rear-enders). I may be a minority of one but I definitely do give a significant cushion to the vehicle in front-and get very very nervous is someone is right on my ass.
In PA, only the PA State Police are permitted by law to use radar (no laser); all other police agencies use non-transmitting methods in PA. YMMV in other states.
Long ago, PA got “hip” to citations being overturned in court due to calibration data, so there’s a block on PA traffic citations for the officer to fill in the device calibration data.
I’ve heard anecdotally from several police officers, from several different states/jurisdictions, that out-of-state (and by extension, out-of-country) vehicles are always a target, due to the increased probability of drug busts. [yes, hearsay =/= data…]
That isn’t a made up thing. The only ticket that I have gotten in the last 20 years was also in New Hampshire on Christmas morning no less. I was speeding but so was everyone else and my real offense was having Massachusetts plates (a Masshole in local terminology). It is a common and well-known problem. Just like some tiny towns have speed traps, New Hampshire does too at a state level and they focus on people from out of state. That didn’t work out well for them though. I worked through all the appeals for well over a year, showed up in court and plead it down to going 2mph over the limit. $40 - cash. I did on principle and I will waste a whole lot more people’s time if I had to do it all over again.
For those of you that think that speed limits are absolute, that is not true. The roads that I drive on daily (I-495 outside of Boston) move at 80 - 90 mph because that is what they are designed for. You aren’t ever going to get stopped for going less than 80 mph and police often pass people going that speed. The posted limit is 65 but almost no one does that and it screws up traffic flow when they do. The national speed limit used to be 55 mph to save fuel. That is ridiculously slow on interstate highways that are modeled after the German Autobahn. What changed? It wasn’t the roads. It was just the signs.
When I’m on a Chicago expressway when the traffic is chugging along at 75-80, yeah, I don’t feel safe driving 55. And, yes, this happens at varying times on the highway. I just go by whatever the traffic is doing and what feels safest to me, whatever the speed limit may be, and do my best to keep at least 2 seconds behind the driver in front (in good conditions) and leave myself an exit to the left or right. For most of those types of trips, there really isn’t a desire to speed. It’ll save me, what, a couple minutes at most to my destination? It’s a desire to do what I feel is the safest for me and the passengers in my car. (This is not to say that I haven’t sped for the shit of it when I was much younger.)
And, yes, in my driver’s ed, they did teach me to go with the flow of traffic. My memory is that at least our instructor taught us that, no, officially and for the purposes of the drivers test, it is never okay to go over the posted speed limit, but, in practical driving, you should go with the flow of traffic. Of course, they taught us a lot of stuff that were not “official,” like if you see a car flashing his lights at you during the day, that means there’s a cop ahead, and stuff like that.
Several states (including Oregon, where I live) have this weird thing called the Basic Speed Rule. It says there’s a maximum safe speed depending on the conditions at the time and it’s entirely subjective. You can get a speeding ticket going 42 mph on a road where the posted speed limit is 55 mph, if (for example) it’s nighttime and snowing. The law does clarify that maximum safe speed is never higher than the posted speed limit, although it can be below it.
As if that’s not bad enough, several states (including Oregon, where I live) have a vaguely worded law about minimum speed which says that you can get a ticket for driving too slowly if you are preventing other cars from traveling at the “normal” speed. The laws often don’t clarify whether normal speed can be higher than the posted speed limit.
So, if you’re on a two-lane road in Oregon, with a posted speed limit of 55, there is no such thing as a speed where you can be confident that you won’t get a ticket because of your speed. It’s possible to drive 49 and get a ticket for going too fast and it’s possible to drive 53 and get a ticket for going too slow on the exact same road under identical conditions, depending on the opinion of the LEO who pulls you over.
Thankfully, if you’re on a four-lane road and you drive at or below the posted speed limit you can be 99% sure that you won’t get a speeding ticket. But you can never be 100% sure.
Getting back to the OP, telling the judge “I was going the same speed as a cop car that I saw” will NOT get you out of paying the ticket.
It’s correct, though, that the majority of states have “absolute speed” laws where cops can stop and ticket you for going even a few miles over the posted speed limit. It’s just that such strict enforcement has tended to either be ignored for more “reasonable” speed limits, or for times when temporarily issuing more speeding tickets became desirable. Legally speaking, not much argument can be given if you got ticketed and you literally were going over the speed limit.
I once got stopped for speeding down a local road, but the cop saw that I lived nearby and let me off with a warning. Cop told me that they were starting to enforce the speed limit on that road, so locals used to driving faster were being warned. Non-locals got ticketed.
You’ll get blown off the road driving 55 on a Chi Town highway. You can go 85 and a school bus full of kids will whiz past you. :eek:
The FIBS drive faster than anyone in any of the 50 states I’ve been to. When I was on the highway unit during my first career a good percentage of my writes were Flat Landers. Because WIsconsin is not a member of the National Drivers Compact we used to take them into custody and make them post bond. Then in the late 80’s the state put out a rule that we could issue a cite if the violator was from a state that borders Wisconsin. For some strange reason they included Indiana on that list.
My adaptive cruise control tries to keep required car lengths. The closest that it allows me to follow the target is 1.9 seconds, which allows the emergency braking system the 1.8 seconds it needs to stop (can’t cite, work documents). This is just enough time to let others feel impatience and get in front of me, causing the adaptive cruise control to slow the car down, making others impatient with me, and get in front.
I bet that if there were a coordinated effort, enough cars could get my car to stop.
Well, when you can, of course. Most of the time, it isn’t possible to go anywhere near that fast because of the traffic, but when traffic is light, I guess folks have so much pent-up frustration from being in traffic much of the time that they try to make up for it by pushing 80. And it’s not always. I would say most of the time folks try to keep it around 70, but there have been many times I’ve thought to myself “my, traffic seems brisk today” only to look down at the speedo and see 80 or, even as you say, 85. No rhyme or reason as to when those times occur, though–at least none that I could ascertain.
Much of what you describe about Oregon law is similar to Ohio regulations. The common factor is, one can never be confident in expecting immunity from citation when EXCEEDING the posted speed limit, and sometimes based on road conditions, LESS than the posted limit… Let us all try to wrap our heads around the concept & definition of MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE LIMITbased upon road conditions related to State law.
Oh yes, in Texas, you could drive like you’re in the Gumball Rally a lot of the time, and lots of people do. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen cars racing each other at speeds of around 150. I thought we were the kings of urban freeway madness, even though traffic does usually move in a range near the speed limit.
In Chicago, I learned my lesson. Around 11 am, I was cruising at somewhere between 85 and 90 down one of the urban freeways. I had folks regularly passing me on the left and right, often in cars that I wouldn’t trust at 60. That happens in Texas, but not with the regularity it happened at on that morning.
