Cops Kill Innocent Hofstra Student

[Boyo_Jim]

@crucible

…and correct me if I’m wrong, he is not told to shoot at the gunman without regard for the safety of the hostage. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Not a cop, but I can be pretty certain that a cop is NOT told to shoot “without regard for the safety of the hostage.” I’m sure at the very least they’re told “try not to hit the hostage.” That is not to say they aren’t allowed to shoot when the risk of hitting the hostage is very high.

[doreen]

@crucible

Surely, in some training, an officer is told what to do when he and a gunman are pointing guns at each other and the gunman is holding a hostage. surely, and correct me if I’m wrong, he is not told to shoot at the gunman without regard for the safety of the hostage. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

I am not an NYPD officer, so I can't say for certain what they are told in training. What I can say for certain is that there is *not*  going to be a one-size fits all solution and the training is more likely to be about how to assess the situation .In some situations, the cop will have to shoot the gunman, even risking the safety of a hostage in order to prevent a greater threat (such as the gunman shooting additional hostages).  In others, there will time to wait for a better shot, and in others , there will be no need to shoot at all.The problem is there's not a checklist the police can memorize to determine which situation they are in and worse yet, it's a dynamic situation which can change from moment to moment. Even if the responding officers know it's a hostage situation, they can't always wait for negotiators- suppose the gunman starts shooting hostages before the negotiators arrive?  
 I said I am not an NYPD officer, and I am in fact, not a police officer anywhere. I am however a peace officer who carries a weapon and there are two things I expect that my training has in common with just about any law enforcement agency : 

1. There’s a whole lot of " the penal law (case law, agency policy ) allows the use you to use deadly force when … " and there is absolutely no " you use deadly force when .." People will frequently come up with scenarios much like “should you shoot the gunman when he’s holding a hostage? Suppose it’s in a crowd? " and the trainers absolutely will not give a yes or no answer. It’s always some variation of " You’ll have to decide based on the precise circumstances.”

2. We are always told we don’t have to be correct- we have to be reasonable. And that’s really all you can expect from anyone. If the police were infallible, they wouldn’t be people

[Running_with_Scissors]

@doreen

I am not an NYPD officer, so I can’t say for certain what they are told in training.

From Newsday:

NYPD’s guide calls for officers to seek cover and request a patrol supervisor and hostage negotiators.

Officers should “attempt to slow” the pace of the incident, try to talk to the hostage taker and refrain from actions that might provoke the suspect, according to the NYPD guide.

However, I should note that this occurred in Nassau County, which is outside of NYC’s jurisdiction (although the cop in question is former NYPD).

The article also notes:

“It does not appear that he knew” whether it was a hostage situation, said police Insp. Kenneth Lack of the officer who fired the fatal shots.

Here’s a link to the article, but Newsday is behind a paywall, so most SDMB members won’t be able to access it.

[doreen]

@Running_with_Scissors

However, I should note that this occurred in Nassau County, which is outside of NYC’s jurisdiction (although the cop in question is former NYPD).

I knew that- no idea why I typed NYPD twice.

[Grumman]

@crucible

Okay, the officer is, by unforseen circumstances, confronted with a gunman holding a hostage. Hollywood says, “the officer puts down his weapon, offers himself as the hostage if the gunman will let the hostage go.” or, “the officer puts up his hands, says, ‘wait, wait, wait’, and starts negotiating.”

Hollywood is stupid. Nobody, no matter who they are, should purposefully disarm themselves because they think someone is willing to pointlessly murder an innocent person in cold blood just because their gambit has failed. Anyone who would murder the hostage because you failed to disarm yourself is just as likely to murder you and the hostage because you did.