I just don’t think you’re accounting for the whole rest of reality. This is hyperbole. Have you given any thought to what happens next? Because I think that many people are. Even if they’re not donald, they are his lawyers, his family, and everyone else, including his potential opponents in court.
What happens next? We rant and rave on this message board. Nobody cares.
CNN says how disgusting this is, and the NYT and the Washington post run huge headlines and editorials about how this is an affront to democracy. Trump calls them “fake news” and “failing media”, and orders them shut out of any White House briefings. Gives exclusive interview to Fox News, who fawns over him. Fox News says that the Witch hunt is now over. Word Net Daily and Brietbart have headlines about the Traitorous Clintons, and how they took money from the Russians. For many Americans, all they know is what they hear from these sources.
The public is split. Due to fake social media reports and websites, many believe that CNN made up the accusations, and call for them to be banned.
Democrat Senators and House members are disgusted and are not afraid to say so. They say that the pardons are outrageous, and absolutely the wrong thing to do. Republican politicians accuse them of being disloyal to the office of the presidency. Republican politicians circle the wagons, and refuse to discuss the issue any longer. “It is now closed, and that is the end of it”
CNN continues to report, and half the country now refuses to believe them because of what they saw on their facebook feed.
“It could never happen here” is very dangerous thinking. Of course it can fucking happen.
Read this,and tell me that Trump won’t pull off the idiotic stunt and pardon everyone. Of course it’s possible.
And we’re also at the point now where almost half of the country are not even in the same time zone as reality. They will believe anything they are told by Dear Leader.
Can??? It is happening and as an outsider it is shocking. At first, I thought I would wake up and Americans would have come to their senses and Trump’s support would be <20%. But nope, holding steady. I said in another thread that politics in the USA has becomes a bit like a sporting event and all that matters is “My team won! And therefore, as a fan, I’m a winner too.”
I just read the first two volumes of the “Berlin” graphic novel by Jason Lutes, set in 1929. The slow ratcheting up, the gradual refusal to condemn extremism. It’s all happening here. We might never have a Holocaust, but fascism is here. It’s in the White House, it’s in Congress, it’s in our police departments, it’s in our state governments, it’s in our major media.
Today I went to a neighborhood free outdoor music festival. Among the hundreds of people enjoying themselves came a large man with a firearm prominent on his hip dancing between the crowd and the stage waving a giant Trump flag.
The little babies who dance and jump around in front didn’t know any better, they saw a man with a flag and danced after him laughing. Parents quietly started pulling their children aside.
The band begged him to leave, but that just encouraged him.
The cops said they couldn’t do anything. They knew very well that he was just itching for a confrontation.
We were there to listen to rock music, but we had to watch this.
This is the brown shirts parading in the streets.
This is 1929.
It is happening here.
And no one is acting to stop it.
One thing he can’t do is pardon people for state level charges. We may end up seeing indictments for financial crimes in NY, for example.
Here’s something I’m curious about. Can states prosecute for things similar to treason or for accepting campaign aid from a foreign government?
Sure they can, if they laws for that. Try to find one.
That was my question, even if I didn’t state it literally. Do any states have such laws?
I suspect that there are a number of AGs, and others, looking into it.
You seem to want to avoid any analysis of the dynamics of the motivations of a whole gaggle of people in favor of just saying “forget it. nobody cares.” Still no word from you on the actual reality of it though. What would happen outside of CNN and flyover country? No word on what you imagine the response of the congress or the other branches of govt would be. I would take that as a sign you were really thinking about it. Do you actually think the US just goes on after that? “Oh well…”
If you think donald is some mastermind who’s ready to checkmate the country with his pardons, and it’s game over, I’m sorry, That’s just not credible to me. He may very well be floating pardon talk to see what the reaction is. Like a two year old child.
donald is not agitated and enraged now because he is in control of the situation. Just the opposite: He’s worried like hell. He got everyone he knows into a big mess. If you can’t look at human behavior as anything other than super villains I can’t see how you get any insight or ability to act. This is dangerous, to me.
Regarding the part of this quote I bolded above I am fairly confident the answer is a big fat nothing. Impeachment has to start in the House and the GOP has a sizeable majority. 24 of them would have to defect and go along with the Democrats to reach the 218 needed to pass any articles of impeachment. If Speaker Ryan actually allowed such a vote to take place, what makes you think there are 24 GOP House members who would go along with such a vote? I’ve seen absolutely nothing to make me think these GOP House members exist.
Of course, if the 2018 midterm elections go the way many are (overly) confident they will, then in January of 2019 impeachment might be a possibility. I for one think the idea the Democrats will take the House in 2018 is wishful thinking but who knows. Between now and that day though, ain’t nothing like that going to happen.
I can’t write this script before it happens. I don’t think anyone can. I just think you’re not taking so many factors into account, that happen when things get real. You are talking about completely new territory in this country. It will be an outrage. Care to speculate about what that might look like, or do you just want to repeat the point, that nobody will do anything? Have you seen footage from republican politicians offices lately? Is that nothing?
I don’t think anyone who says they know what’s happening actually does. Especially not based on observations over the last year.
Observations over the last year? Gutless Republican politicians who were disgusted by Trump are now either saying nothing, or supporting him or are in his fucking cabinet, or are his director of communications. They are riding the Trump train, and they cannot get off now that it is careening down the tracks. They are stuck with him, and they don’t have a clue what to do. So it’s support Trump all the way now.
Where are these brave Republican politicians who will do the right thing? Ryan? Priebus? McConnell? HA ha ha ha ha!
You are right - we’re talking completely new territory here - where 58% of Republicans think that universities and colleges are “bad for America”. Where half the people get their news from fake websites promoted on their social media by fucking Russian agents. Where a Cheeto faced shitgibbon is seen as “presidential”.
Well we got to get off our asses and try to envision the way forward. I think it’s an error to assume a steady state, that never changes, no matter how bad it looks. There’s always the temptation to think “it’s always going to be this way” It’s very human. It’s a sign of depression.
Were you in the stock market in 2000, or 2008? While it was good didn’t you think it was going to be the same forever? We are in a bubble right now. That’s not steady state or stable. It changes.
There is a concept called “federal preemption,” that may cause problems here.
As a general rule, the federal government has supremacy, but only in the limited areas in which the Constitution grants Congress powers to legislate. In contrast, states have plenary authority – they can legislate in any area without the need for a list of powers.
Sometimes federal and state laws can both be in play. A federal minimum wage can exist alongside a state minimum wage, with workers getting whichever is the higher. An employer is not violating one while complying with the other.
But courts have carved out areas in which federal legislation means that states cannot independently legislate. This takes a couple of different forms: sometimes Congress will explicitly say, “This legislation overrides any state law on the subject.”
Even if Congress doesn’t include an explicit statement, “field preemption,” happens when the area is so extensively regulated by Congress that no state regulation would be reasonable. (There’s also ‘conflict preemption,’ when it would be contradictory to apply both state and federal law; imagine a federal statute that said pharmacies distributing federally controlled substances must be available to the public seven days a week and a state law that said all pharmacies must close on Sundays).
With respect to treason with foreign enemies, I think there’s a fair argument that Congress has preempted the law. Similarly, campaign aid for federal elections is a good candidate for federal preemption.
However, I have not researched this issue, so there may be case law that confirms, or dispels, my suspicions here.
In reality, there’s no way to know what the ultimate consequences would be until that moment arrives. FTR, I think it’s certainly possible that Trump would pay a political cost, and that’s certainly higher considering his inability to sign any of the signature legislation that he promised. I don’t think people are telling you that we’re doomed, but that there are very obvious and serious warning signs based on what’s already transpired. And right now, I find myself in agreement with those who say that, unfortunately, there’s no real evidence to date that would suggest an open revolt against him within his own party, and that would have to happen before he can be sanctioned by congress. What people are also saying is that it’s damn terrifying that we’re in this position. This is not the time to be saying “It can’t happen”. Too many things have already happened that should not have, not the least of which is his election in the first place. And spare me the retorts about how he won by way of electoral college fluke - he never, ever should have come even remotely that close to winning a popular election for dog catcher, let alone the highest office in the land.
Here’s what needs to be understood about tyrants: they are quite frequently sloppy, disorganized, narcissistic, self-destructive individuals. They are frequently not masterminds when it comes to administration. What they are frighteningly successful at doing is breaking things. They’re talented at destroying their enemies, destroying institutions that limit their power, destroying people’s perceptions of truth and reality. They quite frequently suck at administration and providing for people, but they’re good at conning people into thinking that they can do without things like free speech and that their basic needs will be met if they just, you know, keep their heads down and keep quiet. I’m not saying that we’re on the verge of becoming Nazi Germany, but again, there are warning signs. We do indeed have strong traditions and institutions that make that sort of political feat difficult. But we’re well past the point of being safe. Those institutions are under assault now.
This would seem to support that.
The NY AG is looking at potential financial crimes so that may be a fruitful direction, although I don’t think that anything could be done while Trump is in office.
I do wonder what would happen if a state went after his family members. He’d no doubt flip out and try to find some way to punish that state.
Trump and his family are not strangers to investigations. But he hasn’t realized that when you’re President of the United States it’s different. You can’t schmooze the prosecutors and grease the right palms and make it all go away.
For example, he and his family were criminally investigated over the fraudulent marketing of the Trump Soho project. His children were on record lying about the percentage of units that had been sold in order to falsely reassure and motivate potential buyers.
He shut down the criminal investigation by giving everyone their money back, but as a condition of getting their money back his former customers had to agree NOT to cooperate with the Manhattan DA pursuing the case. This may have kept the shady financial ties to the project from being investigated.
So, investigations are a way of life for Trump, because he’s a con man. But he’s frustrated because the tactics that he’s always used for shutting down or heading off investigations won’t work now.
Being the US president is duel edged sword. On the one hand, you are arguably the most powerful person in the world. On the other hand, you are also the most vulnerable to scrutiny. Welcome to being president, Mr. Trump!