Could astrology be scientifically tested?

I once saw a film of a classroom exercise: A bunch of college students are asked to state their dates of birth, then handed purported astrological profiles, and asked to assess them for accuracy. Most of them say the profile matches their personalities pretty well. Then each student passes his/her profile to the next student, and it turns out they’re all identical. The point is to demonstrate that a pseudoscience such as astrology can’t even be tested for scientific accuracy, because its pronouncements are too vague. And, of course, in light of modern astronomy, the very idea of the motions of planets and “constellations” having any kind of effect on human affairs seems nonsensical.

But let’s forget, for a moment, about the books written by astrologers, newspaper horoscopes, etc. In fact, let’s forget entirely about the stars and the planets and the shapes they formed in the eyes of ancient Babylonians and Greeks.

The basic claim of astrology, in its broadest possible form, is this: Given a couple of items of information about a person – date, time, and place of birth – it is possible to predict something about that person’s personality, life story, or whatever.

So stated, the idea isn’t all that flatly preposterous. No causal mechanism suggests itself, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be one – something, perhaps, that our ancestors noticed subconsciously, and mistakenly attributed to the stars. Perhaps there is something at work in our biology that is affected by what time of year you were born, etc. Something to do with biorythms, perhaps (also a likely pseudoscience, but just suppose).

Testing the idea would be simple. We do have a lot of hard scientific instruments for finding things out about individual personalities – psychological tests, IQ tests, personality-profile tests. Some question the scientific validity of some of these, but it seems clear that all are at least measuring some stable feature of the individual, regardless of what real importance that feature might have. If I give you a Myers-Briggs personality test now, and again a year later, I will probably get the same result both times. Same with an IQ test or a Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Test.

Suppose we gather a group of test subjects and:

(1) We ask them all to put down their birthdates and birthplaces.

(2) We put them through a battery of psychological tests; and also quiz them about their life stories, their employment history, education, religion, hobbies – anything of demographic interest.

(3) Then we try to find some statistically significant correlation between the first set of data and the second.

If we find any kind of correlation at all between birthdate/place and personality type, or IQ, or career success, or anything else, then that means there must be something here that at least merits further investigation.

If no correlations are found, that would prove once and for all that astrology, even by a broad and vague definition, is totally bunk; and all of America’s astrologers, being the intellectually honest people that they are, would have no choice but to make a lateral career move to tea leaf reading.

What do you think? Would this be an experiment worth doing? Has anything like it ever been tried?

Knock yourself out. It’s up to the personal making an extraordinary claim to provide proof. If you think there’s something to astrology, come up with an experiment, carry it out, and get your results published. If it can survive a peer review, you’re in like Flynn.

It’s very annoying to scientists when people throw around outrageous claims and then demand that scientists drop what they are doing and spend valuable time and effort trying to prove or disprove them. To most thinking people, astrology is ridiculous on its face. There is no known force that could cause the position of Mercury when you were born to affect your taste in women or chocolate, or to cause you to be a certain personality type. So if you don’t mind, we’ll require some extraordinary proof. No mamby-pamby small sample sets and 90% confidence intervals. You’ll need to prove your case, rigorously.

And if you can do that, a guy named James Randi will give you a cool million bucks.

Is that true? I thought the basic claim of astrology was that the position of the planets and stars at the time of a person’s birth was an influencing factor in his personality.

Correlation does not imply causation. In fact, if you pick enough possible points to measure, there’s a good chance that you WILL find some correlations, through sheer chance. You need to control for all the independent variables, and that’s not easy, especially in the test as you’ve outlined it. All the people born in September in some agrarian location could turn out to be smarter than someone born in June, simply because the parents had more free time in the winter to spend with the kid. Perhaps in a given year there is a bad harvest, leading to poorer nutrition and lower test scores for the kids born at a certain time. Etc.

It’s up to you to come up with a rigorous experiment that experts will agree shows statistically significant results. That’s not nearly as easy as you’re suggesting.

Here’s what I’ve been wondering. Why aren’t the people who believe astrology is valid trying to determine why it works?

I do not think it works, I hasten to assure you. But is seems that many people do think it works, and it beats me why are they not going nuts wondering what’s behind it. I mean, they can’t possibly give any credence to this silly idea that there is any significance in which constellation would have been overhead at the time of one’s birth back when astrology was invented, can they? Surely not. So if they think it’s valid, why aren’t they even a little curious as to why?

**

Before modern cosmology the idea that the stars and planets were merely stars and planet (as we think of them) would have seemed just as good a guess as any other. Except for the fact that humans have a penchant for imaginatively interpretating patterns and are very willing to believe that the entire universe must revolve around them. It also appeals to the ideas of destiny and fate. That’s before modern cosmology of course, nowadays you are just being gullible.

Well the short answer is yes astrology can be tested. Can be tested very easily in fact.

Method one: as one astrologist what your future holds. Compare his/her prediction with that of multiple other astrologists. Are the predictions the same, or at the very best similar? If the answer is wildly no, then you must be dealing with horse crap.

Method two: see if ANY of the astrological predictions come true for you.

I am sure there are tons of other ways to test the ligitamatcy of astrology, but I haven’t the will power to list more.

Some just believe it and need no proof.

Most have no idea how anything works; cars, electricity, computers; and to them it seems just as possible that astrology works.

If you ask an astrologer they’ll mumble something vague about tides, gravity or quantum effects (!). One said to me that the moon causes tides, so that proves water is particularly susceptible to gravity, our bodies are 75% water, so the stars gravity could have effects on our brains … you can see how rigorous their thinking is. When I pointed out that the average mosquito exerted more gravity on me than any given star she had nowhere to go.

I propose that the birthdays of the CEO’s of the Forbes 500 be analyzed. I would be surprised if there were anything other than an even distribution among the astrological signs, but it would be an interesting and relatively easy test to perform. Surely it can be agreed that these 500 individuals represent personality types and abilities that would be selected for or against among the 13 signs of the zodiac, if there is any validity to the belief.

Nor does it exclude causation, which is why Brain Glutton suggested it would merit further investigation, not that is was proof of anything.

To answer the OP: the trouble is getting astrologers to make a falsifyable prediction. Given that, yes it could absolutely be tested.

Somehow I think we’d have noticed by now if all people born on a given day, lost a job or got an overseas parcel on a particular day :slight_smile:

Sorry for the double post, but it is beyond my control that I cannot edit my posts to add more to them.

To address the point about astrological predictions being too vague to prove/disprove: why do you think people still read about Nostrodamus and think he is correct? It runs in my mind there being a quote to the affect that the village idiot would be chosen as chief, and people point right away to President Bush. Well with a prediction so vague as that (not to mention that eventually, someone somewhere at sometime will be chosen leader who is of limited intellegence) how could you disprove it?

Dave Gorman’s experiment for the BBC could hardly have been more rigorous, involving as it did his twin brother:

http://www.davegorman.com/dgiaep2.html

On the very last show, with Dave way way behind his non-astrology-following twin in “happiness points”, he made a bet based on his horoscope (somehow involving Welsh golfer Ian Woosnam). It came in, catapulting him miles into the lead, proving beyond reasonable doubt that astrology is valid.

Brian:

I’d be very surprised if no one has tried to evaluate astrology before on a scientific level. Have you done a google search or posted the question in GQ? We all know of the hundreds of experiments done on ESP.

One problem you might have is determining exactly what astrology is. If you ask a dozen astrologers to consult their charts about some future event, you are likely to get a dozen different answers.

The Master speaks: Is astrology for real?

Before I get started let me make it clear that **I do not believe that astrology works, **but like BrainGlutton, I would like to have some definitive studies to cite whenever the topic comes up.

BrainGlutton, the “experiment” you mention was done by James Randi and is discussed here. Its purpose is a bit unclear, and about all it showed was that people are gullible - no surprise there. It said nothing about the difficulties of proving or disproving astrology.

Sam Stone -

True, but that is not a very convincing argument. It’s not unusual for a drug to be considered effective without knowing what the bio-mechanics are.

Your caveat regarding artificial correlations is right-on. The example I always give is that I would expect to find subtle but statistically significant differences between people born in September and those born in August simply because those born in September will as a group be the oldest kids in their class throughout their school years while those born in August will as a group be the youngest. I would be astonished if that didn’t influence their personalities to a degree.

So how would we go about testing this? Astrology makes two basic claims: given a person’s birth date (1) it can describe a person’s personality and (2) it can make predictions about that person’s future. Testing the prediction claim would be tricky since they are generally stated in such vague terms, “Sometime in the future something good will happen to you.”

The personality descriptions aren’t much better but there are some things that you could nail down. What I would do is get the Myers-Briggs personality test which IIRC gives scores on 6 personality traits (or three continuums if you prefer). Map those traits to astrological signs. For example, take the M-B extroversion score and look for astrological signs that are supposed to be outgoing, extroverted, etc. Test only for those cases in which there is a clear mapping between the personality test and the astrological sign. This will help to avoid those statistical artifacts the Sam Stone mentioned.

After you run the numbers you are probably going to come up with zero correlations, and the astrologers will have some ‘splaining to do. Having had this kind of debate with astrologers in the past I will predict - based on Mars ascending to Jupiter - that they will claim that it’s not enough to know a person’s sign, you need to know their exact birth date and place of birth. That argument, of course, completely disavows the legitimacy of the generalized astrology columns printed in papers everywhere, but don’t expect astrology advocates to recognize the obvious.

Well, for scientifically provable assessment we can turn to astronomy itself.

Astrology is predicated on the fact that the Sun (as well as the moon and the five visible planets) are in certain positions in the sky at the moment of one’s birth. For example, my birthday is November 2nd 1969, which according to astrologers put the Sun in the constellation of Scorpio.

There’s a wonderful reference work called Uranometria 2000.0 which is an exhaustive catalog of the night sky in both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres. It also includes the path of the ecliptic, marked off in degrees. This little detail enables us to more or less accurately plot the actual position of the Sun on a given calendar date. It takes zero degrees as the point of the vernal equinox - the place where the ecliptic crosses the Earth’s equator.

For 1969, the vernal equinox occurred on 21 March, which we’ll consider as Day 0. March 21 on non-leap years is the 80th calendar day of the year, while November 2nd is the 306th. Subtracting the two we get 226 calendar days between the two.

Now - how far along the ecliptic does the Sun appear to travel in those 226 days? We know that the Earth takes 365.25 days to revolve once around the Sun, which means it takes 365.25 days for the Sun to appear to travel 360 degrees.

306 deg/365.25 days = ~.986 deg/day.

226 days * ~.986 deg/day = 222.8 degrees.

Looking at this basic chart of the sky, which includes the ecliptic, we see (on page 3) that 223 degrees on the ecliptic is firmly within the confines of the constellation Libra, which according to astrologers is the Sun sign for those born between late September and late October! Indeed, the Sun doesn’t begin getting close to Scorpio until November 22nd, when astrology claims the Sun is already in Sagittarius. As if that weren’t enough, the Sun spends the better part of December in the constellation Ophiuchus, which at last check hadn’t made the roster of astrological signs.

Essentially, astrology is observing positions of the Sun that were accurate some two and a half millennia ago and has failed to take into account the changes brought about by physical forces acting on the Earth as it revolved around the Sun. So there’s no need to try any further experimentation on whether astrology can accurately determine a person’s personality or predict their future because its very premises have been shown to be so faulty as to be useless.

Well, if we can’t trust a game show for rigorous, objective testing with all possible variables accounted for, who can we trust? :stuck_out_tongue:

First of all, I don’t think your claim is correct. I’m pretty sure astrologers use charts based on current positions of celestial bodies.

Secondly, just because the theory that explains a phenomenon is flawed does not necessarily mean that the phenomenon isn’t real. (Let me state here again for the record I do not believe in astrology - I am simply playing devil’s advocate.) I may try to explain the images on my TV as coming from little people living inside the tube, and while my theory may be totally wrong that doesn’t make the images go away.

bnorton- nope, Olentzero is correct. Well, mostly. there is a minor side branch of astrology that tracks your “real Sun sign”.

Actually, it has been tested- and failed- “Mene, Mene, Tukil, Upharsin”.

CSICOP & Randi have both done studies.

I KNOW the Skeptical Inquirer studied astrology on more than one occasion, in several ways. They DID notice a minor tendency for famous warriors to be Aries, but beyond that… predictably, nothing.

However…

Many systems for grouping personalities have 4 major segments, and we are supposed to generally be one thing mostly, and a second category to a lesser extent, making 12 basic personality types (4 groups for primary times 3 groups for secondary). I have noticed that these 12 groups often correlate somewhat to the Zodiac signs.

Perhaps (and this is just a thought), the whole astrology thing is just an attempt by people who noticed this ‘12 types’ bit to put some kind of order on what they were seeing. That is, maybe the types came first and astrology was developed, in part, to explain this?

Posted by Madkins007:

Do you have cite for that? I know of only two personality-typng systems: the Meyers-Briggs system, which has 16 personality types, and the “Enneagram,” which has nine.

I’m mainly going by my own experience with an astrologer. My wife once dragged me to some kind of women’s empowering convention which oddly enough was crawling with astrologers, numerologists, aroma-therapists, etc. (Go figure.) Anyway we struck up a conversation at one astrologer’s table, she asked me my birth date, and I told her “September 21, 1949.” “Oh,” she said, “you’re a Libra.” I reply “Nope, I’m a Virgo”. At that point she looked it up in her book, and, sure enough, on that date in 1949 the sun and planets did whatever they do and it went from being Virgo to Libra. September 21 on most other years is Virgo territory. To know my sign for sure I would have to tell her my exact time of birth which I didn’t know.

I’m not doubting you but I would like some cites.

But what is the phenomenon they’re trying to explain? Human personality. The theory is that the position of the sun and the planets in the sky affect that in a definite way. I’ve shown that to be scientifically invalid, but that in no way leads to denying the existence of the human personality. Just like your TV doesn’t stop working once you understand the principles behind electronics and electromagnetic theory.

I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about here. The Sun doesn’t even begin to approach Libra until the beginning of November - take a real good look at Page 3 of the chart I linked to in my last post. Whatever reason that astrologer gave you to back up her assertion that the Sun was in Libra on 21 Sep 1949, I strongly suspect she was using the orifice more frequently used for expelling solid waste than vibrating air.