There are some bread factories who have people bag the loaves. And there are some that have automated bagging machines. Obviously that is technology that exists that’s not used everywhere it could be.
You don’t have to take anything away from anyone (well except for maybe the sickeningly wealthy, but honestly what are they going to do when stop needing them… it’s not like their money is worth anything. So who cares really what they have. The point is making more out of the plentiful resources we do have and making sure everyone is accounted for.
Most people would agree taxation isn’t a real problem solver. How we will pay for welfare or a the fire dept won’t matter if there is no money.
No one has to give up anything. Also you bring up these jobs no one will want to do, but I think they would want to make the transition when things like that aren’t necessary.
Venus project has some ideas on community layout, but I haven’t looked at too many.
Why would anyone steal when there is no need to. If everything was free then… there would be no reason to steal. Many of the problems that laws try to solve would be gone.
Kill me and take my stuff? but stuff is free. Just get the same stuff I have and you conscience will be clean. Also you’re still thinking I don’t think there needs to be any law. From my first post I made it clear that something had to be done about murder because obviously complex social issues involve deciding to murder someone. I don’t think we could get rid of it 100%, but I think we could get close enough for everyone to feel safe.
But that’s your tribe of people, not mine.
It depends what I did and if I got a good standard of living. If I did a tedious mundane job, then I’d do it until they got a machine to replace me. If I worked on robotics. HELL YEAH I’D DO THAT JOB.
It’s such a complex event that it’s stupid to lay the blame at any one pair of feet. First of all, the lion’s share of blame goes to Al Qaeda. But you could just as easily throw some blame at the Clinton administration, if you wanted to engage in that sort of thing. AQ was broke, demoralized, and ready to disband when Clinton fired a bunch of dud missiles at them that they collected and sold for (IIRC) $10 million a pop. If not for that one event, the twin towers would probably still be standing. But if god hadn’t created the universe, Abraham Lincoln would still be alive, see?
There are compelling arguments that our government failed us in foreign policy (making false promises about the occupation of Saudi Arabia during Gulf War 1 which provided the genesis for AQ, etc.) And compelling arguments that our intelligence community failed us (the FBI and CIA together most likely had enough information together to stop 9/11, but they didn’t realize it and didn’t want to share.)
But there are no compelling arguments that there were bombs in the WTC, or that Cheney ordered a stand down, or that Al Qaeda doesn’t exist or is employed by the US government, etc etc. Those are just lies used to gain support for other agendas. And these are all “theories” (I use that term in the loosest possible sense) that the ZM supports.
Of course money buys political power. Far too much IMO. But it’s a stretch to say that Jewish trillionaires are explicitly calling all the shots in the world as part of an all-powerful shadow government.
Even the stuff they say about Jesus is mostly fabricated from whole cloth, and I’m one who questions whether the historical Jesus even existed.
The Zeitgeist movement has less than 0 credibility with me. I don’t care how great anything else they say is, they poisoned their own well with that shitty movie.
Were they also in the process of foreclosing on homes who may have had a working class man who pays his taxes? Must be nice to screw up, foreclose on someone’s house, and then collect his tax money too… at least they paid it back… after using it to make more profits and buying corporate jets… the real issue is… why the government helped those idiots.
Please remind me… what is the purpose of fine print. What is its purpose psychologically. Also what is the person’s job at a bank that sells these products… isn’t it their job to be on the borderline of honesty… saying things like… yeah it’s not a fixed interest rate, but… from my experience it never goes up that much. Don’t worry about it.
That’s how I would pitch it. And that’s probably how I’d be coached to pitch it. So don’t act like dishonest tactics are never used in corporate america to swindle people.
Now the real problem is did some people get in over their heads. Yeah. They did, but so did the banks. You can say a bunch of others got sunk… and you can keep saying that all the way to the bank (pun intended), but the truth of the matter is some banks got American tax dollars in their time of need.
What did theose home owners get?
I would need to know you were rich to demonize you specifically, and I wasn’t referring to you at all. I was pointing out the ugly truths about capitalism that you want to pretend that aren’t there. You don’t think hit men don’t ask for a lot of money that most average people wouldn’t have? You don’t think rich people cheat on their spouse with the occasional 14 yo girl from Thailand on that ‘business vacation.’ It’s not the working class that can afford to do things like that. Maybe you could enlighten me on the economy of 14yo girls from Asia.
They recoup a loss. Unless you can prove otherwise, most financial institutions do not go out looking for people to finance in the hope of getting that property back through foreclosure. They are financial institutions, not property managers.
No, anyone with a cursory understanding of the industry would understand that the most money the bank will make is for all of its customers to pay their mortgages on time. They live on the interest, not on the loss that they take by foreclosing property. banks cannot "hike’ up the rates at will. they can only do so within the guidelines of the agreement that they and the borrower agreed upon.
As far as them being involved in ‘shady deals’ I never said anything like that. I only said that he had wall street insiders, and that it seemed suspicious to me. And it should to anyone.
Now if the word suspicious is a problem, then strike it from the record… whatever.
But still it seems you’re overreacting a bit. I know Obama is a special guy for some people, but to me he’s just another one of them… well I guess i’ll save it.
The truth is I still haven’t made up my mind about Obama. i don’t consider myself a Republican or Democrat, I just someone who will help people who need it.
Wow. That’s just a whole nutroll of stupid right there. Who are these “most people”? Can other people see them?
How the hell are you going to make stuff free? There won’t be any stuff because no one will work! No one will sweep the streets. No one will clean the sewers. No one will build skyscrapers. People won’t do it because no one’s paying them. Robots won’t do it becuase those robots don’t exist. And they never will exist, if you insist of getting rid of money.
And what are you going to do when my people want your people’s land? Do you think you can just make more land? Are you just going to give it to us for free? What about when I come for your wife and daughters? Should I just “go get the same [daughters] you have”? How is that even possible?
Whatever happened to not calling people stupid in debates, well whatever.
You think taxes solve problems in a system without money. Apparently you are forgetting what the topic of this discussion is… :rolleyes:
Again… that’s your tribe of people. Not everyone is like you… what’s the psychological term for the type of person that does that… typically children are this way… when baby’s look at something through a window they instinctively think that what they can see everyone can see… ego… well I forget nevermind.
You’re right… it’s so packed everywhere… not enough land for shelters… well except for all the empty homes… very efficient system we have now.
Maybe where you live it feels cramped, and maybe that’s all because our culture tends to focus industry in one area and people flock to it.
If you haven’t noticed there is actually plenty of land for everyone to live on… Now as far as those useless strip malls… yeah those will go, but even with them… plenty of room.
My wife and daughters? Oh because you’re still stuck on that no law thing. I’ve moved on.
nilum scarcity exists. It always will. I want my own private jet. Fine, since stuff is free, off I go and get my private jet. Now, my friends see me in my jet, and they want one too. They tell their friends, and pretty soon everyone wants a private jet. Well, turns out the plane factory don’t have enough planes to satisfy everyone. What happens then?
Would there be a limit to what people could own?
Or are you talking about a world with no private property?
I didn’t call you stupid. Just every idea you’ve stated thus far.
You don’t read much, do you? I said that taxes redistribute wealth in this system.
I specifically asked you for a number. I’ll ask again: What percentage of people would keep working without a paycheck? Why would they do such a thing?
I didn’t say I wanted land. I said I wanted your land. And daughters. Because you have the best land (waterfront!) and the best daughters (hawt!) and I want them both. Now how do you propose I get those things?
I don’t know if it’s your teacher’s fault or your fault for lack of paying attention, but it is difficult to debate the subject on a serious level with you because you don’t seem to have a basic understanding of it. You don’t need to agree with it, but you should at least be able to articulate why.
It might be useful for you to understan what a bank is and how they actually work. And I mean beyond a weird “Evil Organizations Trying to Take Over the World” sort of mentality.
The role of a bank is to finance various ventures - buying a home, starting a business, acquiring a company, whatever. They lend out money for a fee (interest) which the lendee is expected to pay back over time. Their hope is that whatever it is they are lending you money for will be worth more in the future so you can pay them back over time.
Banks only “rule the world” because the debt they lend out is essentially a promise to continue working until your debt is paid off. Of course if enough people fail to pay their debt, the bank fails like Bear Sterns or Lehman.
Excessive debt IS a very real issue. Whether it is a household or an entire country, what out of control debt allows someone to do is take more resources out of the system than they are contributing. That is fine in the short term, but left unchecked, eventually the system will collapse as it cannot be sustained.
i don’t know what was discussed specifically, but I remember an issue similar to this came up, and it basically came down to things that BIG would be public.
First off this is a world of rational thinkers, not greedy materialists.
This is quite a bit different, but one example they used was golf clubs.
If you go golfing and at the gold course they have the best golf clubs ever and you use them for a round of golf… you could theoretically take them with you… but why burden yourself with having to store them when whenever you go to the gold course the best will be there.
The problem is you put importance on owning and having more than someone else. Those are the values of this system, but not every system.
Also their public transportation system would be some special sort of mag lev train that crisscrossed the globe. Allowing travel faster than a jet plane, and supposedly more secure.
Personally… I would want a house. Wherever. A tablet PC with high resolution that I can use for digital art. And a job as a person who works in robotics. Even if I just solder some wires :X… Oh and one of those cars that prevent me from killing myself drunk driving.
They could, but there would be no need. I can’t think of a situation where it would make sense to use it if they didn’t need to as it is worthless paper.
nilum, some of those people renegotiated their loans and their interest rates. The point which you are missing is that it isn’t profitable for the bank to sell a bad loan, because it costs them money in terms of legal fees and pure losses to foreclose on a home which they are then responsible for maintaining and then selling, usually for a loss. I signed a mortgage and I can’t understand why those people wouldn’t have known what was going to happen. My lender gave me the option and it was all spelled out in the loan documents. Most of the interest only loans in my area were people looking to buy something and flip it.
I haven’t met very many of either group, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are. What I mean by selfish is that people tend to put their interests first. As for lazy, isn’t everyone? I wouldn’t go to work for free, and I can’t imagine that the Amish are making that furniture for free.
That appears to be the idea. Everyone would share and share alike. People wouldn’t have private jets; there would be a fleet of jets anyone could use. Of course, combined with the “get rid of government” part of the ideology, this ignores the problem of “what happens if some people grab all the jets and demand stuff in return for use of them? Or just blows them up for kicks?”
I could certainly see a future where much or all of the economy is automated and there is a far vaster array of publicly owned services and utilities. But someone or some institution has to own them, and someone needs to keep order.
And there’s also the problem that people like having private property; how do you keep people from declaring “this is mine!” without a government to enforce your perfect society? The answer of course is that you don’t; like communism, you’d end up with a government set up to enforce ideologically correct behavior for the duration of the transition to the perfect stateless society, but the government would never “wither away” as promised.
oh and when they’re in trouble they’ll ask for trillions of dollars in bailouts… you say they’ve paid it all back, but i don’t know if I can take your word for it.
MMM also could explain what happens to these people who do file bankruptcy on their bank… I imagine they lose everything.
That’s what I really want to know. Tell me how the bankers have suffered through all this. Maybe they’ll come back more empathetic.
Explain to me how I pay for a place to live, buy food, or buy clothes without money. What on earth would I trade for them?
Forget the central banks. You can have money without a reserve system if you want - it doesn’t work as well, but let’s ignore that for now. How do I get the things I need without money? What do I barter away?
