If there was no money...

Consider if there was no such thing as money and wealth was based solely on knowledge and contribution. I feel the world would be a better place. Financial matters would not hinder a person pursuing most things they would have not been able to do because of lack of money. The worlds resources would be less drained because items would not be overproduced to try to make a profit (is there a need for car companies to create a new model of a car each year – could cell phones not just be made to be up-gradable?). People could focus on what they really like to do instead of trying to find a job to get by. There would be no need for people to sell drugs or prostitute themselves for money. (I’m sure a huge percentage of crimes committed are money related.) Would the world be as corrupt?

I can see one antithesis of my argument being that money is incentive. Could people really get along with each other without it? New poster just wanting to see what people have to say.

TJ

Societies without money have been tried but not, generally, with much success. There are groups such as the Hutterites that function with minimal economic interactions as we know them.

Primates trade sex for food, so good luck with that.

It’s pretty hard to see any advanced society working without a standard medium of exchange. In such a world, people wouldn’t really be “pursuing most things they would have not been able to do because of lack of money”, they’d have to spend most of their time trying to figure out how to trade whatever skills or possessions they had to gather the basic necessities of life.

Do you want to just get rid of money, or do you want to get rid of the concept of wealth and private ownership as well?

If you just get rid of money, you haven’t really done much other than to reduce us to a barter type economy and make everything harder for everyone.

If you want to get rid of private ownership than you have to determine how to distribute limited resources and how to motivate productivity. In small societies where everyone’s interests are interconnected, I could see it working, but beyond a few dozen people its pretty much guaranteed to fall apart.

I think the issue is primarily practicality. Okay, so money is gone. How do we value people’s contributions? How do we protect those who aren’t able of producing their own food and shelter, but still have valuable contributions? Do we simple divide resources equally? That’s not a great way to make people interested in their contribution to society, as we saw under socialism in the 50s-90s. And of course, you talk about corruption… except now we’ve just moved from money to resources, and the handling thereof could just as easily be corrupted. It’s just not a good idea.

The only possible way I can see it happening without resorting to other forms of trade like bartering is if we magically have unlimited resources for everyone so that everything material is essentially free, including food, shelter, healthcare…

Now just figure out how to do that first.

Invent a matter replicator.

Of course, that still leaves the services side of the economy . . . unless you use it to make slaves . . .

I think the OP needs to read up on what money really is. It’s not an end in itself. People don’t want money per se (unless they are misers who enjoy counting their pile of coins). It is a medium of exchange, a standardised, transferable IOU if you like. But unlike an IOU that you write for a friend, complete strangers will happily accept it. That is the benefit of money - it hugely increases the potential for mutually beneficial economic exchanges, i.e. trade.

Well if you can invent a matter replicator you can probably invent robots to do the dirty work.

A box of raisin bran is $2, so I would come about ahead in that trade.

Who decides what your knowledge is worth, and what if your knowledge has no practical value? And who decides the value of your contribution to society? And what happens to people who have neither useful knowledge nor a useful contribution to society?

And what about work that nobody wants to do? To paraphrase a recent thread: Who will collect the garbage?

And don’t assume that everyone considers your plan ethical.

B. F. Skinner once wrote a book, Walden Two, about a communal society that was technologically and academically advanced and sophisticated, and that operated without money. A group of scientific managers decided which tasks needed to be completed and assigned a value to each task. Everyone had to do a certain number of ‘points’ worth of work each week, but could decide exactly which work they were going to do. As far as purchasing, there wasn’t any. Rooms, food, and clothing were owned and distributed equally to everyone.

It exists only in fiction, of course.

Ok, but money is simply a symbolic medium of exchange. So, what would you use to substitute for that? I mean, you have to be able to exchange your ideas or knowledge or whatever for, you know, food…houses…internet…cars…gas…

etc etc.

If I want to exchange my knowledge of networks for some other persons knowledge about electricity, or perhaps for gas for my car, how do we agree upon an exchange rate? What’s my knowledge of networks worth to the guy who grows the corn I want to eat, or who cuts the trees for the lumber for the beams of my house…or makes the porn I want to watch? :stuck_out_tongue:

Um…that’s not how markets actually work. You really should have at least a thumb nail understanding of how they work and how companies make a profit before starting a debate on doing away with money. The short answer, though, is that goods and services aren’t overproduced to make a profit…over production is how you’d lose money, since if you make more widgets than people will buy you’ve wasted resources on stuff just sitting around doing nothing.

Certainly, if you did away with money and didn’t replace it with something that could be used as a common agreed upon medium of exchange the entire world would collapse and we’d go back to the joys of hunting and gathering, and this would ensure that new cell phones weren’t made every year, but seems like sort of an extreme course of action to solve a problem that actually isn’t a problem at all. Here’s the thing…the reason companies make new cell phones every year is because consumers WANT them. So, doing away with money isn’t going to change that, it’s merely using an axe to teach that puppy not to piddle on the floor.

Um…how so? Let’s say that we could all just do whatever we wanted instead of have to work to ‘get by’. Who do you suppose wants to collect and process the garbage? Who wants to ensure the sewers get maintained? I don’t think many folks would be that interested in doing a lot of the dirty jobs out there if they could simply do what they wanted. Hell, who would maintain the networks and infrastructure? Sure won’t be me…I’ll be playing computer games and relaxing on a beach with scantily clad love muffins peeling me grapes and lighting my fine Cuban cigars on their back sides while drinking 25 year old single malt whiskey trickled over the thighs of…er, anyway…that’s what I really want to do. :stuck_out_tongue:

No, it wouldn’t happen. Some other agreed upon medium of exchange would be used, and they would just call it something other than ‘money’. Either that or the world would collapse and we’d go back to hunting and gathering…and, ironically, the few thousand of us left would STILL use something as a medium of exchange (beads, crafts…or, most likely, sex…just like in the good old days ;)).

Money has created a lot of the things that people find fun as well. Some of my personal favorites are video games, really awesome Marvel movies, and Legos.

Yeah, we could live without money, but what would be the point :slight_smile:

I think someday we might have a post-scarcity society where that kind of thing is feasible. If most things are so cheap that we don’t really need to ration them, both the need to ration goods and the need to motivate people to do work they don’t want to do disappears.

But that’s hardly the case today. And while the execution sometimes leaves something to be desired, as a concept money is a pretty elegant solution to the problems of scarcity.

If money didn’t exist, we would need to invent it. Money creates an abstract item of general value. Without money, you could never run an efficient economy.

Suppose, for example, we lived in a non-money economy. I have a problem with my toilet so I want to hire a plumber. That means I not only have to find a plumber who knows how to fix my toilet, I also have to find a plumber who is willing to trade his services for something I can give him. Or if I have some skill, I have to go around and find people that want or need my skills. And then I have to figure out something that they have that I want from them. Every transaction becomes a complex negotiation.

It’s a lot simpler if we just have an arbitrary unit of value. When I have skills or goods I can sell them for these units of value. When I want to buy goods or services from somebody, I can give them the units of value I’ve accumulated and they can then use them to buy what they want from other people.

Not the way Damon Knight spins it.

Even Communist societies have found themselves obliged to use money or some functional equivalent. The only possible near-exception I know of is the Spanish Revolution, when they used vouchers which were sort of money and sort of not.

As an idealist, I can imagine such a society, akin to the Star Trek universe, where the concept of money serves no purpose, but it’s not pragmatic because such a universe depends on principles and technologies that just plain don’t exist and may or may not ever exist. For instance, one of the things that they’re very clear about is that the basic needs of every citizen are met, this is largely due to replication technology, free-energy, and other technological advances in fields like medicine. Thus, theoretically, if nearly everyone decided to just stop working, all the citizens would still be provided for.

And this is one of the major purposes that money serves in our society today, it forces people to make economic decisions, such that one makes good uses of one’s own resources to provide for oneself. Money ensures that any work one chooses to pursue has into it’s consideration my ability to provide for myself and the efficiency at which I obtain that.

I’ll use myself as an example. I’m educated in Computer Science and I work in a related field; however, my biggest passions are related to music and philosophy. In a world like our own but without money, I’d probably do little or no work related to my education and primary skills and I’d focus a lot more on the latter. As a result, I might be happier, but ultimately society as a whole is worse off because that is my greatest contribution to society. I don’t do that work because I want to be rich, in fact, I work the fewest hours possible so that I can focus more on my passions, but it’s an informed decision that, as a result of money, forces me to consider the greater whole of society but in a simple manner of whether or not I may enough money without having to understand the complex economic interactions in the background.

Yes, for some people money is an end in and of itself, but I think for most of us it is a means to an end of balancing our own self interests with the interests of society as a whole. Theoretically, it means I can make decisions about how to best use my resources to balance those two ends without having an economics degree. Maybe I can see that I can make a little bit more money doing something else, and that might be due to shifting demands and new technologies or whatever, but the whole reason I’d get paid more to do it is because it theoretically is a better use of my skills.

That all said, even in an ideal world where we can easily provide for all the basic needs of everyone, I’m not sure the concept of money still isn’t useless. Will we ever see all of the jobs that need to be done but few people have interest in doing go away? For instance, not many people are passionate about doing janitorial work, ditch digging, burger flipping, and I could imagine that with sufficient technology many or all of those types of jobs will go away, but can we necessarily say that without money that we’d always have enough people to voluntarily do the jobs that need to be done to ensure that society can run smoothly? I’m sure there will still be some people who would do some thankless, difficult, or dangerous jobs for reasons I don’t really understand, but I can’t believe we’d have enough of them. If, however, we need at least some money to get some benefit above the bare minimum society is easily able to provide us, there will be incentive to do something other than just our passion projects because it will provide greater benefit to society.

So, sure, maybe some day in the distant future, with sufficient technological advantage, we might be able to provide a minimal standard of living to everyone that can survive purely on the work of those who are willing to volunteer. But we’re still far away from that goal barring some major scientific and engineering breakthroughs in the near future.