So, let’s say a olden day first rate naval ship of the 1625’s and over from England managed to score a full broadside on a modern Arleigh Burke destroyer’s hull after it had crept around a rocky hill therefore hiding it from the Burke’s view.
I think that such a ship could do quite a bit of damage, since modern USA naval ships are built only to withstand the water pressure and not weapons fire.
How resistant would the wooden hulls be against a destroyers 25mm cannons and light machine guns that are there for some reason?
Finally, how effective would a smaller carrier battle group of the USA be against a hypothetical fleet of 100 of the finest first rate 100+ heavy gun ships and their proper escorts?
The carrier battlegroup would obliterate the other fleet. Remember that apart from anything else, sailing ships are constrained by the wind; ships with engines are not. Further, modern artillery has a far greater range than that of 1625-1825. And when the modern ships run out of ammo, they simply leave.
First, the sailing ship could never get within firing distance of the destroyer under any circumstances other than being transported instantly to within firing range. The differences in draft would make it impossible. Second, 25mm cannon and light machine guns would turn the sailing shit into kindling in seconds. BTW, the machine guns are there for just that purpose - to deal with close-in, small, soft targets like small boats and such that pirates use. Thirdly, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Now, you will note that the first post says that while the shots probably won’t penetrate, but will destroy all the fragile equipment and crew on the deck. Then, the destroyer should be able to run away while firing.
However, the list under it, with slightly less upvotes, reminds everyone that most modern warships are actually only armored with a very thin coating of metal, just enough to resist the pressure of the ocean. They say that a destroyer only had about 20mm of steel, which even a .50 machine gun could penetrate.
As for the destroyer seeing the sailing ship first, in the OP I mentioned that it was hidden behind a mysteriously convenient wall of rocks, and as the destroyer was floating past, the sailing ship was suddenly behind a perfectly sized corner opening in the rock wall, in which the sailing ship could fire before the destroyer could react. It was almost as if the natural rocky wall was constructed for this very purpose, how strange…
They would get one broadside, which might cause some damage. Then the sailing ship would be reduced to the aforesaid kindling by anything the destroyer carries. From that era, the mystery ship would be firing solid shot, so there would be no explosions to worry about. A full broadside would be up to 70 guns. What range you choose will be the determining factor as to damage to the destroyer.
In the early 17th century the transition wasn’t quite complete between boarding being the decisive weapon and cannon. So ships built later in the apparently long period of technological stasis from 17th century to the Napoleonic Wars were more heavily gunned. But let’s say when the standard armament of the lower decks of ships of the line had become 32~36 pdrs, then could these weapons penetrate the sides of modern warships? Yes, probably. Modern ships aren’t necessarily just designed for structural strength, their sides might be thicker to resist fragments of weapons (like anti-ship missiles of bombs) detonating nearby. But not likely to be more than 1" high strength steel (a big merchant ship’s side might be only 1/2" mild steel). Tests done of 32 pdrs v wrought iron armor when that was introduced ca. 1860’s showed at least marginal capability v 4" wrought iron plates under ideal conditions, so 1" of HTS could probably be penetrated at close range. However in case of a big ship like a carrier there’s a long way from the ship’s side to anything vital inside. It’s more plausible for an old smoothbore to damage a modern destroyer type ship, also including the possibility of hitting the bridge, antennae and so forth.
A multiplier for the effectiveness of oak v Rolled Homogeneous Armor is 1.2% (as for example in link). So .50 cal mg’s if they could penetrate 12mm of RHA (within the range of capabilities of .50cal depending particular type of round and range) could penetrate around 3ft of oak. The sides of ships of the line could be 2+ft thick but not 3. Also incendiary or MP (explosive/incendiary) .50 rounds even if they lodged in the wood (in the side or something behind it) would start fires wooden sailing ships had little ability to counter. Then 25mm much more effective per round than .50.
The sailing ship force would have no effectiveness whatsoever assuming any competent handling of the modern force. The first two questions can be answered theoretically assuming the modern force put itself within reach of the sailing forces’s weapons, but it could easily destroy them without having to.
I’m trying to work the math to figure out if a sailing ship could elevate its guns enough to hit the bridge of an aircraft carrier from any range. I think they could, barely, but not with any accuracy or tremendous impact.
Okay, so I guess after thinking this one over a few times, that the second scenario is absurd and there is absolutely no way for the wooden sailing ships to win, however the first scenario might still be decent.
Hmm… What if…
A strange shrieking sound is heard across the ocean, and a single green glowing bat flies across the water, overhead the 1600s sailing ships. Suddenly there is a great white flash, and the sailing ships have been replaced with 85 of the best and brightest Victorian-era battleships and pre-dreadnoughts. A further batch of 10 sailing boats have been replaced with the latest and greatest super-dreadnoughts after the Victorian era, and then, the final 5 ships are replaced with actual honest-to-God WW2 Iowa-class battleships! Hahaha!
I’ve heard that the heaviest battleships would actually be almost completely missile-proof, as in multiple tomahawk missiles would do little to nothing against one, save for killing the guys on top and blasting some big dents, while two or three shots from a 16 inch mark 7 gun would probably annihilate a normal modern destroyer in short order. There are also lots of people who say that even multiple Arleigh Burke destroyers have “no chance” of destroying a single Iowa-class battleship, ever at all, and that even if the Iowa just sat there and did nothing, a small group of Burke destroyers hammer it with every single thing they’ve got, and other than perhaps incapacitating it, nothing would really happen.
Now the destroyer is completely out-classed. If it was far enough away it might get a few Harpoons away, but one hit from a 16 inch gun and the destroyer is razor blades. It could probably dodge a bunch of single shots, but against a steady rain of broadsides? Not a chance. Even from the pre-dreadnaughts.
Umm, I mean the second scenario, where a modern carrier battle group once fought a bunch of sailing ships. So the destroyer is now an entire carrier battle group against the WW1/2 fleet. The first scenario was only one well-placed first rate 100-gun ship against a single destroyer.
Range when the “incident” happens? Because that is going to make the difference. If the carrier group is out of gun range when it happens, then the dreadnaughts are toast. Period. The carrier group can out-run them, and strike from over the horizon, with nukes if need be. If they are well within gun range, then the dreadnaughts are still toast, but they will do a ton of damage before they drop.
The Man O War, or what ever old ship we have, magically some how gets in range for a broad sides shot, which is probably going to be too close to fire into the deck? since the carrier sits pretty tall relative to the old wooden ship.
So we get 16 BONK BONK BONK, and some poor E2 gets assigned to scraping and sanding the dents and repainting them.
Oh joy for him
Then carrier crew points anything bigger than 30 caliber at the wooden ship and sinks it.
Should take no longer than it takes the mess to make coffee?
50 calibers will just chew through the wooden hull , saw through the spars etc and wreck it.
Anything smaller might not be able to sink it depending on plank thickness, but that is ok, it will remove the annoying guys on the deck with the noisy flintlocks.
Any anything on the carrier that’s the equivalent of a bofors will enjoy its time as a toothpick factory.
Heck, i am thinking even a small PT boat running something like quad 50’s would have no problem sinking some old wooden Galleon?
Even an Iron Clad for that matter?
This is of course assuming that we aren’t talking Davy Jones and the flying Dutchman.
Lest we not forget, 1812 English cannons couldn’t penetrate the sides of the wooden USS Constitution, thus it’s nickname [del]Raymond Burr[/del] Old Ironsides.
Not to imply any credence to the OP’s notion, BUT… After touring the USS Midway in San Diego, I was amazed at how flimsy it’s construction was. It’s command/control center was armor plated, 4" to 8" of steel… But it’s hull and superstructure appeared to have the thickness of a beer can! I would surmise, easily penetrated (under non-hostile, lab conditions) by Napoleonic cannon fire.
I’m no physicist, but I would guess that an olden-day cannon from a man’ of war would leave a noticeable dent in a U.S. Navy carrier’s exterior, but can’t do anything to put the carrier in any remote danger of sinking, even if all cannonballs hit the carrier with full force.
As for your old ship fleet vs. modern US Navy CVBG, it would be a total mismatch, the entire olden-day fleet would be sunk and the US Navy would not suffer a single loss, perhaps not even a single fatality or injury.
I don’t think shells were available in the 17th Century yet … so we’re talking about:
36] Ball shot - Puts a hole in the side of the destroyer … [cringes] … well, it’s news to me that modern warships aren’t armored so there you go …
41] Chain shot - Great against rigging … maybe takes out the handrails on a destroyer
85] Grape shot - Across the destroyer’s decks might have some anti-personnel effects
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Just an aircraft carrier against 100 square-riggers … the square-riggers would never ever even see the aircraft carrier … hell’s bells … a hundred modern warships would never see the aircraft carrier …
If it was me, I’d crew my square-rigger with top-less women … flying false colors … get up close and let go the nuclear bomb in my hold …
IIRC, the first duel between (real) ironsides, the Merrimack and the Monitor, ended in pretty much a draw. They fired cannonballs at each other - which simply bounced off - for about 3 hours and then withdrew.
I would be surprised if the modern naval construction is less sturdy than that.
of course, that battle resulted in an immediate arms race, where better cannon were developed with better shells to better penetrate even better armour. But I believe that would be after the time period the OP refers to.
