You have not, however, found millions of people who are willing to relocate themselves to a radioactive desert for the purpose of colonization, which was the stipulation to which you refer.
That’s interesting. I never have, and I suspect I know a lot more trigger happy right wingers than you do. I have occasionally said that I’d like to turn the Middle East into a radioactive wasteland, but that was said out of extreme frustration, or simply to yank some liberal’s chain. It was never meant seriously. I think you should supply some examples of people have seriously proposed wiping out an entire Middle Eastern country. Other than Israel, that is.
Um, no. I was criticising LonesomePolecat’s statement that no one was deranged enough to think something like was possible, not that there were millions of such people.
The apologists in this thread do seem obsessed with waving their hands and yelling that “It’s unthinkable ! Impossible !” over and over.
You are reading too fast in your outrage. The “no one” referred to people who believed that Bush could find millions of people for resettlement, not to people who expressed a desire to wipe out a nation. Not even Ann Coulter actually believes that we could find people to move there.
And I stipulated the MODERN military. I don’t deny that the tactics used in the Indian Wars were genocidal in intent and outcome.
But outside the Indian wars, where systematic elimination was the goal, where has the US Military wanted to exterminate an entire class of one type of people? The operative phrase with genocide is INTENT, as in you intend to destroy an entire set of people for whatever reason.
I’m less concerned about what Joe and Sally Homemaker (or even Joe and Sally-Joe Redneck) think about things, but more about what the 4th estate does with it and who can access their information. To be able to commit genocide, you need surprise, secrecy, and fear. With a free press, and with soldiers having easy access to it, I can’t see it happening. And with access to information that it was happening, lawmakers that are not insane would be able to put stop to it.
Instead of “moving there” or “resettling”, consider “temporarily working there”. There are currently 168,000 US troops in Iraq. Add troops from other nations, private military contractors, and non-military contractors, and you’ve got a significantly large “Western-style democracy” populace already in Iraq. Remove the non-Westerners and you’ve got enough peace and enough folks to extract the oil in record time, ship it over to the US and other Western allies on oil tankers, and stow it away on friendly soil. After Iraq is pumped bone dry in a few years, let the natives back in and it’s another poor country nobody cares about. Mission Accomplished!
Yes, but apparently those in Congress [Ms. Pelosi, I’m talking to you] who have the authority to initiate proceedings in that direction obviously don’t agree.
This thread was started, if I can speak for The Controvert, as mere speculation. I haven’t seen anyone in this thread attempt to pin this as a charge on Bush.
I’m not upset over things that haven’t happened. I’m upset that people still choose to hide their heads in the sand as Bush et al prove time and again that they are willing to go further than most believe. Also, as this administration has effectively shown, we have no idea what they will and will not do.
First of all genocide is not a fantasy (I’m going to presume here that you’re using the the word in the context of a desirous outcome) for any sane person. How you equate responses in this thread to the OP’s postulative query with a desire is beyond me.
Wrong. I’m somewhat embarrassed to admit that I know people who’ve expressed this precise sentiment. You probably should ask around before making such easily disprovable assertions.
I’m not saying he does, but again, you don’t know this.
Wrong again. Some folks who lean right make a knee-jerk and false presumption that folks who lean left believe Bush, being the orphaned, bastard spawn of Yog-Sothoth and Satan he so obviously is, commits his evil deeds all on his own. Obviously Bush’s minions do the dirty work ;). In all seriousness, since Bush is a member of the neocon cabal, or at least its facilitator, if they wanted a genocide, or whatever it would be called, I do believe they would take steps to attempt to make it happen. Of course they’re probably too inept to be successful at it, but I see no evidence that the people, congress, the press, or anyone else would do anything whatsoever to prevent the attempt.
Wicked is a good word to describe the neocons and this administration, and it doesn’t take much of an imagination to see it. What we’ve done and continue to do to Iraq and its people is inexcusable, and yes, evil. An actual plan to commit genocide isn’t even needed at this point with how things are going. There’s already a mass exodus of Iraqis fleeing to Jordan and Syria. Okay, it’s actually a cleansing and not genocide, so I guess we can all go to sleep tonight with clear minds.
Rickjay, The Indian wars were over 120 years ago. I think that the nation and its military have changed a bit over the last century don’t you think? And area bombing and genocide are two totally different things. It’s easy to look back now and think how we should have fought WWII differently, and been more "civilized” if you will, but that was the norm then and we were in the fight for our lives. Carpet bombing is no longer the policy of the United States. We use precision guided munitions, which kill to a lesser degree. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have to bomb at all, but until we are there, killing less is better.
And I’d disagree that it’s easy to get Solders to kill civilians. You’d be surprised how much though goes into our operations, and the strategy to minimize civilian causalities. Thanks for portraying the two million of us in uniform as blood thirsty killer though.
I love how those who never served (I assume - prove me wrong, Rickjay, if I am I apologise) assume that those in uniform are either bloodthirsty thugs or slack-jawed morons, in either case with no moral code of their own and only trained to follow orders without the wit or the capability to think for themselves.
We were taught it was not only our right, but our duty to not follow illegal orders. If an order was morally questionable, then we had the right and the duty to question it. I’m sure most modern vets would tell a similar story, and I know for a fact the training hasn’t changed for those currently serving.
Genocide is illegal by the Geneva Convention. So is intentionally targetting civilians, as well as pretty much everything that is illegal on civvie-street (rape, murder, etc…) and the Uniform Code of Military Justice is quite specific in what those crimes mean in the US Military in or out of combat. You cannot be ordered to do something illegal, and if you do not follow that order you cannot be prosecuted for it, and if you do follow the order you are just as liable for punishment as whoever ordered you to do the illegal thing.
The lawmakers we have now can’t or won’t put a stop to anything; they’ve shown that over and over. And our “free press” is a collection of sycophants and celebrity chasers. And our military is quite detached from reality and immersed in far right propaganda; last I heard the majority believed that Saddam Hussein was heavily involved in 9-11. And I fail to see why you need “surprise, secrecy, and fear” to commit genocide; just people willing to pull the triggers or launch the missles, and when has our or any army lacked for those ?
They are, obviously, or they wouldn’t be doing what they are doing.
Assuming this is true, not that I do, so what ? The vast majority rather obviously aren’t demonstrating any scruples.
As if we care.
Iraqi genocide? Hell, according to my mores, he’s waaay past that point.
I’d be – and I am – more concerned with his (and his acolytes/handlers) obsession with starting WW-III: On the Eve of Destruction – By Scott Ritter. You know, the ex-marine/weapons inspector that’s been right all along.
Sleep tight.
I’m pretty sure Bush could sodomize a nine year old boy on live tv and cap the kid twice in the head when he was done and there would still be a large segment of the population who would vacantly say, “this is a time of war, we have troops in harms way, we have to fight them over there to protect our way of life!” while joyously crying and saluting.
Overstating it a bit, I’m sure, but there are some people for whom patriotism means being a jingoist moron. They would be waving flags and praising the troops while the genocide went on. I have my doubts that the objectors would have gumption to stop it… I mean he’s made failure into an art and has gotten his way every time.
Der Trihs- You have here what appears to be a veteran of the US armed forces, telling you directly that they are told what to do when given an illegal order. Are you outright calling him a liar?
There are, what? 150,000 some odd US Military in Iraq right now? You honestly believe that they ALL spend all their spare time raping, killing and torturing?
We have several instances of such things occuring. Those soldiers are awaiting trial.
According to my brother, whose been there several times now, the main focus is trying to keep cool, keep hydrated, and making sure that debris on the road isn’t going to go foom. While wary of the Iraqi-on-the-street (as he could be the one to make that garbage can go foom as noted above), for the most part they are treated by the average soldier as mobile scenery. Just like we treat folks walking on the street when we’re driving down the road.
This is, of course, according to my brother, whom in the past you have called a liar and a murderer, so I don’t necessarily expect you to believe me/him now.
As for rounding up and mass executing civilians, according to my brother, there are probably a handful that would do so. There are people like that in all levels of every society on earth. But the majority would not follow those orders, if given that way. And given modern communication, it could not be done and “covered up”.
Canadian Forces, 1989-1995. I’ll take that apology whenever you’re ready, thanks. I was a soldier and I’m very proud I served, and I served with a lot of fine people. I met my very best friend in the Forces. I worked with U.S. soldiers and they were fine individuals, professionals and kind, decent people. But I’m also not stupid enough to believe our own press clippings. A smart soldier knows that the Army creates a lot of myths about itself.
First of all, “Genocide” is not a subject of the Geneva Conventions. Secondly, I’m not discussing genocide (admittedly, the OP is) but merely the killing of civilians by soldiers, which can happen on a large scale without rising to the level of “genocide.” The fire-bombing of Gemany and Japan in WWII, for instance, killed well over a million people but was not “genocide” in a meaningful sense.
Thirdly, hey, pal, whatever makes you sleep at night. Here is the fact; every professional army that has ever existed in the history of the world has, when ordered to systematically kill foreign civilians, followed those orders. If you really, honestly believe in your heart than Americans are special, super-moral people who are different from all the other people who have every lived in the ten thousand years of human civilization, then might I suggest you look up the results of the Milgram experiment. Personally, I do not happen to believe that Americans are special angels, different from all other human beings.
Yes, I was told I wasn’t supposed to follow illegal orders, too. But the facts show, again and again and again, that when it comes time to kill civilians, soldiers can be convinced to do it, albeit usually in degrees. It’s not like you just declare war on Belgium, march in and start shooting kids. But when you’ve been at war for years and you’re told to torture some poor slob who got rounded up in Karbala, or to firebomb a village to make sure they aren’t hiding any weapons, or - as my grandfather did, and I loved him and think he was a good and decent man who was just in a horrible time and place - are told to go and set fire to an entire city to make sure the civilians are all either dead or homeless, well, when you’ve been at war for years and you’re told it’s got to be done, there’s a darned good chance you’ll do it.
And you can talk really big and puff your chest out and talk about how YOU’D never follow an illegal order because by Gosh and Mom and Apple Pie it’s wrong and the UCMJ says you don’t have to, but that’s all talk and no action, and have a look at the photos from Abu Ghraib. Look up Milgram. Look up, well, every war that has ever been fought.
Or ask a Cambodian whose family was blown to smithereens on the Plain of Jars. That was just what, 35 years ago? B-52 pilots were all volunteers.
The fact remains that even in modern times, U.S. troops have done as ordered when told to kill civilians, such as in World War II or the bombing campaign against Cambodia. Are you denying those things took place?
Again, I’m not singling out Americans. My own country area bombed Germans and burned them alive in their homes and all that good stuff too, and if we’d gotten a hold of the Bomb in 1944, Berlin was gonna glow. Armies have always been used as tools to kill the innocent and there are no cases of a significant portion of an army refusing to kill foreign civilians when ordered to do so. Thousands of years of history are informing my opinion on this.
I don’t know if he’s lying or not, but I also see no reason to trust anyone who has anything to do with the military.
Enough do, especially the killing. And not in their “spare time”, but under orders.
Sacrificial cannon fodder who became an embarrassment. While the people who gave the orders skate free, and are in a position to give similar orders again.
When they aren’t being shot for stepping out of a car or out of their house or because they wandered too close or picked up a lure that US soldiers left or any number of reasons.
It wouldn’t need to be covered up. Most Americans would shrug and not care. And our “morally upstanding” soldiers have yet to show any reluctance to kill anyone they are told, just like every other military in history, so no, I don’t believe your brother. Especially since he’s actually in the military and quite likely under orders to say what he is saying.
Again, calling my brother a liar. Do you ever wonder why you end up in the pit so much?
As for all those soldiers doing the killings you claim, do you have a cite for 10’s of thousands of civilians being killed every week by US forces?
US forces using bait… discussed, and condemned, and currently under review because of it. Soldiers shooting cars that follow to closely… this is a regretably understandable precaution, given the popularity of carbombs, but it’s also something that gets heavily reviewed, and in some instances the soldiers get in trouble.
Again, not that I expect you to belive that, as it comes from the military itself.
Which is comprised of volunteers. Which draw from all levels of society (though yes, more from the ‘lower ranks’ of our nation).
So, since apparently US soldiers are all mindless drones in your feverish imaginings, what are you saying about the average US citizen?
As for your theory that nobody in the US would care, well, there appear to be a sizeable number on this very board that would be calling for investigations. And while the SD is decidedly to the left on this sort of issue, I have no reason to believe that the crowds that have been gathering together to protest on a regular basis would suddenly stop.
Or do you think the gestapo would send out black marias to scoop them up?
Any particular reason --against all evidence – we should believe your brother? Other than the (claimed) fact he is your brother? And even then, so what? My brother could well be be a mass murderer. To give him the benefit of the doubt, most I’ll say he is one of the FEW good apples-- or simply a product of your brainwashing/training tactics: US of A, can do no wrong, thus everyone else is wrong by default.
Meanwhile, it is also a proven fact that BushCo and the US Armed-Forces have LIED through their teeth, while butchering/torturing/raping countless innocent Iraqi civilians. For no reason at all I might add.
Pit me if you will. Wouldn’t want Der Trish to feel lonely.
Bush’s imposed, Neocon-led, US bloody Imperialism out of Iraq NOW!
I don’t pit Der Trihs because there’s no point. He doesn’t actually go to try to defend his ludicrous stances. I tried it once. No fun.
And I’m using my brother, who has actually been to Iraq several times, as a citation unlike you, me, Der Trihs and most of the folks that post in these threads. Granted, he’s not a sociologist, but when he says to me “Most of the guys over there just want things to go one way or the other so they can go home” I tend to believe that over some keyboard strategist who claims that all US soldiers are murderers, having never been to Iraq or lowering himself to actually talk to a serviceman.
It’s the fallacy of excluded middle, if I understand things correctly. Der Trihs and others focus only on the bad, and ignore anything that contradicts that.
If he’s in Iraq, “liar” is only the beginning of the insults he deserves. He is at the very least a collaborator in the mass murder of the Iraqi people and the devastation of their country. In a just world he’d be tried and executed or tossed in prison for the rest of his life.
I think that they are the same scum who elected Bush to a second term. What makes you think I am in any way fond of America ?
No need. The protests would be ignored as they have been from the beginning. And most of the opposition to Bush has come about becaue of a few thousand American casualties, not because of anything that we’ve done to the Iraqis.
The reason they are there IS to murder; to murder any Iraqi who doesn’t grovel before us or does something we don’t like. Every single one is either a murderer or a collaborator in murder.
There is nothing but the bad to focus on.