Regarding the FL high court (same bunch from the election debacle, I imagine), and their ruling against school vouchers…
I understand the ruling, and I understand that the SCOTUS’ ruling merely found no Constitutional prohibition on vouchers, leaving it up to each state. No problem there, there’s no point in beating the debate over vouchers to death. What I’m wondering about is the roughly 650 families that were to start school next week in private schools with the aid of vouchers. What are they to do? Come up with the money or risk their kids becoming truants? If they’re let back into the public school system, a system bad enough in their area for them to be allowed vouchers, and have no other choice, would you want to be the one to tell the kid?
“Sorry little Timmy, but you can’t go to that nice school like we planned. You have to go back to the rat-infested public school. Just try to hold off the bullies as best you can. It won’t be so bad, I hear theres a big map of the world in your classroom, you can learn where countries like East Germany, the Soviet Union, and the Ottoman Empire are. I bet they even have the first reports back to Europe from Pizarro’s expedition about this ‘New World’ I keep hearing about.”
Basically, could the court have grandfathered these students in, or was it an essential part of the lawsuit that vouchers be immediately halted?
I don’t think you have to worry, RexDart. Jeb Bush and friends are already planning their appeal, and there will likely be a sympathetic federal judge somewhere to stay the ruling pending appeal. At which point all the states’ rights advocates in Florida will come forward to protest this federal usurpation of the rights of Floridians. Won’t they?
“Sorry little Timmy, but you can’t go to that nice school like we planned. You have to go back to the rat-infested public school. Just try to hold off the bullies as best you can.”
Do you have documentation of the alleged horrors of the public schools involved? And what of the rest of the public school students whose families can’t afford to send them to the Living Jesus Academy, even with vouchers? Maybe we should concentrate on improving those public schools and getting parents more involved with their kids’ education, rather than breaching the separation of church and state and encouraging a hugely expensive new entitlement program.
With all the criticism leveled at Florida public officials these days, it was refreshing to see the Florida court unambiguously uphold the state constitution and protect the rights of its citizens.
Article I, Section 3 of the Florida constitution: No revenue of the state or any political subdivision or agency thereof shall ever be taken from the public treasury directly or indirectly in aid of any church, sect or religious denomination or in aid of any sectarian institution.
Seems pretty clear to me. Any blame for little Timmy having hopes for going to a better school pulled out from under him lies firmly on those who gave him false hope to begin with.
You can’t appeal a question of state law to the federal courts. There’s no federal constitutional or statutory right to have the state pay for Timmy’s religious school, so the Florida Supreme Court’s ruling is the final word on state-sponsored vouchers in Florida.
As for poor Timmy, what Revtim said. Tell Timmy’s parents to pitch in to improve his school and the state’s school system.
You guys misunderstood. I am not debating whether the FL court was right or wrong in deciding to rule against the voucher system. What I’m wondering is whether they had to rule in such a way, providing the sort of legal relief, that immediately kills the program. I’m suggesting that the first wave of voucher recipients should have been grandfathered in to avoid last-minute confusion over where they’re going to school, among other reasons near and dear to little Timmy.
Putting aside the issue of whether throwing more money at schools will improve them, which is a topic for a more general debate about vouchers that has probably been done to death on this board before, I wonder about little Timmy. Increasing school funding isn’t going to help him at all in the here and now. Even if extra funding was approved in the district’s next fiscal cycle, we’re still looking at a couple years down the road before any impact. That’s not the issue I was addressing, at least. Little Timmy could have been allowed to go to the school he’d probably already registered at and use his voucher that had been obtained before the ruling.
Instead he’s going to be prevented from doing so, unless Jackmanii is right about the appeal, but I think rather that minty green was right. Of course you can file a state law claim in federal court if the federal court has subject matter jurisdiction virtue of diversity of citizenship and amount in controversy. Clearly this claim could not have been brought in federal court in the first place, however, due to lack of subject matter jurisdiction. I’m not sure how these challenges to laws are made, but I presume it’s some sort of claim in equity for injunctive relief…
Which is why I asked the question in the first place, could the FL court have grandfathered the kids in if they’d been so inclined, or were they required having made their decision to grant immediate injunctive relief (i.e. suspending the function of the law, however that works.) I don’t get to take Legislation until next spring, so I really don’t know. I could have asked this in GQ if I’d worded it differently, but I wanted to both inquire and make a few remarks about how I don’t like the effect of the decision.
There would have to be some kind of federal question at issue to get into federal court. It would be pretty ironic for the Republicans to argue that the federal government should overrule states’ decisions regarding education, considering all the crap they talk about states’ rights. I guess everyone is confused ever since the Supreme Court overstepped its bounds to install an unelected president.
The problems in poor schools would be solved by “throwing more money at them.” Certainly money could immediately buy new maps and kill the rats.
I shouldn’t argue law with a lawyer, but opinionjournal.com raised the point that the Florida Constitution as interpreted by this judge may be in conflict with the US Constitution. They pointed out a couple of recent decisions that seem to say that it’s federally unconstitutional to treat the church worse than the secular side. If that interpretation holds, then Florida couldn’t throw only secular schools out of the voucher program. I guess they could kill the entire program, though.
The real argument is whether the fact that the parents choose the school means that the state isn’t directly giving the money to the parochial school. It seems to me that a judge could go either way on this question. I wonder whether Florida has any program of college scholarships or college loans that can be used by students at religious colleges.
Jackmannii – Under the Florida law, the only students entitled to vouchers are those whose school has been adjudged a failure and have not fixed their problems after a certain period of time (3 years IIRC).
According to what has been discussed here (any link to an article or the ruling?), grandfathering in little Timmy would violate the Florida state constitutional provision as much as the whole program itself. Money from the state treasury would go in aid of a sectarian institution. $1, or $1,000,000 - it makes no difference.
The only way a grandfathering could take place is if private money was substituted for the state vouchers.
Quoting from december’s link: “The precedent will have to come from the Supreme Court. Florida Governor Jeb Bush has vowed to appeal…” To whom is Jeb going to appeal, if not to a federal court? (Maybe there’s a sympathetic Justice of the Peace in Sugarland, TX).
Wonder if the Florida law that supposedly mandates “school choice” only in the case of “failing” schools also compels private schools to give the voucher money back, if the kid hasn’t made substantial gains after 3 years of the Living Jesus Academy.
Perhaps GQ is the place for this, but in light of the above, I will ask it here…Does the state of Florida give college financial aid to students attending sectarian or religious colleges, and if so, how is this reconciled with the above quoted clause in the state constitution?