The Divine Gaudere does not want worship. When you worship you do not question or doubt; when you do not question or doubt you will never find out if you are wrong. She thinks it is best if people can learn to love each other without a dependence on a belief in a Supreme Being to do so. And since Divine Gaudere made these little thinking apes, why would She make them have to love her to be the best little apes they can be if She didn’t need love?
First off… I have to get this one out of my system… [bad humor]God wants Glitch… but He keeps finding a glitch in the system [/bad humor] That one has been running around in my head for a week now and just had to share it to get it outta there 
There wasn’t room for it anymore…
Ok… moving on…
If I had chosen not to take the pills, I believe that I would have seen this as my own doing probably with no divine intervention at all. This may or may not have been best for my psyche. I needed something pretty serious to snap me out of where I was. What about for you? Do you feel you needed something pretty serious to snap you out? or (using your best hindsight) Do you think ‘talking yourself out of’ stabbing yourself would have worked? I also see the ‘during’ and ‘after’ miracles as cruel… but potentially necessary.
I have thought about this for a while. And it really doesn’t surprise me. I know for me… that night… I would not have been able to accept any feeling of love directed at me. I don’t know if my psyche could have handled going from despair to knowing that I was loved. I think I would have rejected it outright actually. (That’s my best hindsight.) It was enough for me that I went from wanting death to wanting life… not unlike you did.
One I know I’d be interested in hearing.
Because the Holy Spirit is a part of God. He hasn’t given up on you. It’s that spark of life that is remaining in you. (Life being your quest for knowledge and truth here.)IMO.
About the “dead” part and the confusion… do you think maybe it is your ability to believe and trust in a God who “weaseled” on you that is dead? I am just trying to understand.
Actually… I think my phrase was “peace outside of depression.” I clarify this because “peace from depression” is VERY different IMO. The answer you gave makes total sense when speaking of peace from depression. Do you see a difference in the two phrases? I will share my views later.
I have to say… I have struggled with one question over and over. I know the main ‘requirement’ of being a Christian. Accept that you are a sinner, that Christ came to save us, etc… The question that I am struggling with falls along another debatable Christian topic “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS). If Glitch were to die tonight (and please don’t… what would I do with the free time I would have from not posting here…) Anyway… If Glitch were to die tonight… what would happen to his soul? (I am coming from the Christian standpoint here of believing in the soul and the ‘after’.)
Glitch… do you like to read? I stumbled across a book that I think you might be interested in and may like. Let me pique your interest with a quote from the book:
There are some other pretty good quotes in this one. Interested?
Beth
Gaudere: You hit the major points, including that the DM looks a look like the non-existent one (which is why I have always dismissed it as irrelevent). There is one key difference, I just can’t put into words yet. It is only a concept. I apologize for not being more specific. I have racked my brain trying to think of the words to describe this concept, but I can’t.
Yes, but no to the first.
No, to the second.
To clarify, yes we are all imperfect, but we have the capacity for perfection. That is perhaps the only perfect thing about humanity, is the capacity for perfection.
I think the second greatly underestimates the character of God.
I knew I would regret choosing Glitch as a username. Actually I always wondered why Glitch was called Glitch. Afterall, he always seemed rather error free from my perspective. Noble chap too… letting himself be downloaded and all. sniff
To quote my theist friends, sure it would you just don’t realize it. 
Seriously, you must have suffered to some degree mentally and spiritually. Your earlier notes (or was it the letter?) suggested you did. So what if you hadn’t of seen it as divine intervention? You would have been alive with an undamaged spirit, still fully capable of seeking out and finding God.
I agree that any of the three miracles types can be equally valuable to your soul (in a salvation sense), but to your psyche a before miracle is clearly best. At least, in my opinion.
Yes, I think talking myself down would have been just fine. I am very confident I would have recovered quicker and with less anger and hatred in me.
After miracles are “cruel” but at least you “buy” something with the pain. A much clearer sense of intervention (even if it isn’t 100% obvious, and since when is any divine intervention 100% obvious).
It is the middle that bothers me. You pay the price of admitance but you don’t get to see the show.
Some other time. I don’t think I can handle posting more deep experiences quite yet. Besides, some of these stories I have in mind get pretty deep into the supernatural, and I am worried David B will come down here and whoop me.
No, not that. It is confusing. The best way I can explain it is this. Imagine your heart , mind and soul being completely silent. The terror of that still sends a shiver down my spine, just to remember what that was like. All the internal talk was simply gone. I was dead, just my heart was still beating.
Yes, I think I do. I will be interested in what you have to say. I think my reply still stands. Peace/Conflict. Yin/Yang. Balance always.
I’ll try, but the Ouija board seems to have ideas of its own.
Sure, I’ll put it on the list of stuff to read, along with a dozen other books. I am not much into reading religion (I prefer self defense, violent crime, criminal studies, basically anything dealing with sociology), but I’ll check it out and see if I like it.
Methinks Glitch is having fun with us 
I guess I am kinda lost here. Let me try to answer from all angles and hopefully I will hit on something that answers your question. I suffered a lot both mentally and spiritually… both before and after the suicide attempt. Before, I was just flat out depressed. I hated everything that reminded me of my past, and yet I felt like everything that was going to be my future depended on my past. Just as you described seeing the suicide as the center of your core, that is what the abuse was to me. Correction… it still is. (This is still a painful and depressing thought.) After the suicide attempt… I was still hurting. Realizing that there was a God did not wipe away anything, and now it gave me ‘someone’ to focus my anger at. So… had I not seen it as divine intervention (which is what caused me to believe in God) I may have focused my anger at who it should have been focused at (refering to my step-father here). But ya know what… I wouldn’t have focused it at him. Because up to the time of the suicide, the anger was focused inward… at myself. So I would have been alive, maybe. With an undamaged spirit? No… I was tearing myself apart. (Ok… so I’m messed up; life can do that to you. This has been a hard one to write btw.)
Did that answer your question or did I totally miss the point?
I kinda think a before miracle, at least for me… would too easily be explained away.
… and all I could hear was the sound of blood rushing past my ears… Totally empty. Totally void. Am I getting warmer?
Man… now I have to try to put these amorphous blobs of thought into coherent words (Note to self… “don’t watch the lava lamp when trying to come up with words.”)
Ok… My thoughts on this. A “peace from depression” would indicate removing the depression. Getting rid of it because it is bad and has no role whatsoever. I agree with you that there is a certain balance. My depression has helped me to undestand joy. It has made me think. It has a purpose. I believe that God does not necessarily want me in a depressed state, but I know that sometimes it’s the only time I will allow Him to reach me.
So… what is “peace outside of depression”. It’s different. (This is the one that is going to be the hardest to explain.) Depression can bring with it it’s own sense of familiarity, or, said a different way, we become familiar with depression in a way that we can become at peace with it. So peace outside of depression. It is partly becoming at peace with joy, away from anger and/or despair. But that is only part of my picture. There are Bible references to a “peace that surpasses all understanding”. It is definitely a peace that is outside of depression. (Was anything like that in the first email I sent you? If not, let me know and I will see if I can find it here.)
This is really hard to put into words. Did any of that make sense?
Sot that means if you respond tomorrow, we can assume the Ouija board was wrong once again
Beth
I am anxiously (sp) waiting to hear of Glitch’s epiphany (sp) of what God is.
As to Beth’s question about once saved always saved. It is my belief and the general belief of Southern Baptists, that once you have accepted Christ into your heart that you cannot lose him.
So, assuming that Glitch did accept Christ into his heart back then, then yes, if he died even believing that God does not exist, then he would still go to Heaven.
Adam and others may disagree with me.
Jeffery
ooo… Maybe that Ouija board was right after all
Beth
Nah, I am around, it has been a busy day. A diplomacy bug (the AI kept breaking alliances, with seemingly no reason … long story … see MPSIMS thread “Those wacky AIs”) kept me 6’ deep in code. Just getting online now.
Could you believe… that everyone has been too busy to keep up with this?
Could you believe… that Glitch must be mulling something over in his mind?
Could you believe… that I am still at work at 9:20pm on a Friday night… making it a 12 hour day?
Could you believe… the real reason for this post?
Beth
Yes, I do disagree. Jeffery, I’d like to know why you believe this. I know there is not one Scripture to back up your belief, so I wonder what you base this on.
Even putting Scripture aside, we can look at this from a logical perspective. To be a Christian, at it’s most basic level, is to believe in God, and His Son Jesus, right? So, how can someone who doesn’t believe in the Father, or His Son, be given the right to live in heaven?
Basically, what you are saying, is that atheists can go to heaven. Why Jeffery? How?
Adam
“Life is hard…but God is good”
Pariah… yooo hooo… Pariah…
I wanna plagerize you… come out come out wherever you are…
This is an ongoing question over in LBBBland.
OSAS and OSnAS
I’d get the links for you, but I can’t get the LBBB up 
Beth
God does not match the definition of the “Divine Me”. I tried pursuing a multi-faceted god to resolve that problem (i.e. god exists in different ways, from the perspective of salvation and guidance); however, it still remains inconsistent with the “Divine Me”. I also considered a simultaneously visible/invisible god. That didn’t yield much either. A good mental exercise, in any event, and certainly there were many theological things that were suitably explainable with the notion “God is the Divine Me”.
“Glitch … download” - Glitch’s final action. sniff
Adam, your post to Jeffery calls for an answer. Here’s my thoughts:
Assume the traditional God of judgment, who sees all men as sinful but those who have accepted Christ as saved through His merit. Assume the traditional Heaven and Hell.
Now, examine the stances of David, Gaudere, Glitch, slythe, etc. Not a one of them but would not believe if given evidence satisfactory to them. Three of the four have defined in the past few months what sort of evidence would be adequate. But they are nonbelievers, and so by the traditional criteria we are assuming destined to suffer in Hell.
Now, I would do anything within my power to prevent that. So would Jeffery. And so would you, I believe. These are our friends, whose scruples regarding traditional Christian doctrine we hear and understand.
Is it your contention that you and I and Jeffery are more merciful than God?
I do not mean this to be confrontational. But that seems to be the only interpretation available on the evidence. I await your clarification of how such things work in your view. And I am asking, not to argue, but to understand better how you see the hand of God at work.
I would suggest caution along these lines:
- Mercy is not getting what we deserve (when we deserve punishment),
- Justice is getting what we deserve (for good or ill),
- and Grace is getting what we don’t deserve (when we deserve punishment).
A bit trite, but it is a starting point.
If we believe that God is the perfect distributer of these in perfect balance, than it is possible for us to be more merciful than God when God’s balance would require justice. We have often seen the reverse … requiring justice when we think God would call for mercy.
WRT Glitch & Jeffrey’s comment, I would suspect that mercy would be appropriate since Glitch’s disbelief seems to be more severe doubt than outright denial of God.
In that sense then, perhaps, Jeffrey and Adam’s statements are reconciled.
Tinker, good catch on the terminology. Thanks.
On the other hand, I would like to think that God’s perfect love would certainly find a way to avoid condemnation to those whose only fault beyond those we all share is a healthy doubt of what can easily be considered legend (we’ve debated this at length) and misrepresented by a lot of self-righteous televangelists and the like. If God’s “justice” calls for condemnation when a frail mortal can see grounds for mercy and for the extension of grace, then it is no justice at all. Since I believe Him just and merciful, I am forced to the view that Adam’s interpretation of salvation (as posted) is by no means the final word. On that note, however, I think I’d like to wait for Adam and Jeffery to comment. I do not appreciate someone arguing against what they think are my views extrapolated from a short remark; I believe they deserve the same respect. I only posted the initial question to Adam to disagree with what he seemed to imply and evoke a clarification of what he did in fact mean.
Well, Adam, I do not at the moment have any scripture as to why I believe this. But I did post earlier as to why I disagree with the scriptures you posted that said otherwise.
I did not say all atheists will go to Heaven, I stated that I believed that if Glitch did accept Christ into his heart that he was still saved (to use the churchy terms). That in no way implies all. It only implies that if anyone has accepted Christ into their hearts they are saved. Maybe I am wrong, but I do not believe so.
I guess sort of what Poly said.
Who knows Glitch’s heart? Only Glitch and God and on this matter, maybe not even Glitch at this point. I am just trying to understand Glitch’s position and help him understand my belief of God’s position.
The best I can come up with at the moment is from John 10:28,29 which says.
So if no one can snatch one of Christ’s sheep out of his hand, then it stands to reason that if He has given Glitch eternal life then Glitch cannot snatch himself out of Christ’s hand nor God’s. He never says you can be let go. That is why we are under grace and not under the law. We do not sacrifice, because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. If you can show me some more direct quotes as to why we would be able to lose our salvation, I would be interested in hearing them.
Jeffery
I agree with your evaluation of God’s mercy. I would like to think that if I can find something about which to be merciful, that God would also find it compelling.
POLY, we seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot. I’m sorry. I am not baiting you nor am I trolling. I thought I was making a meaningful contribution. I guess I was wrong. If you wish, I will avoid posting in response to your posts.
Tinker
Oh, my, no, Tinker! I am truly sorry. That was not a slam at you; it was simply a statement that, as I would not want to be (hypothetically) misunderstood on the implications of some post I had made, so would I treat Adam and Jeffery. Your disagreement was fully in order and a wise comment. Please forgive what was not intended as a putdown but which you read as one; it was unintentional as applied to what you’d said.
That said, I think we are speaking on the same wavelength (and, it would seem, Jeffery’s as well - see his last post). Adam, your views? Anybody?
Thank you, Poly. I, obviously, read it wrong. I am SO glad you responded before I went home. Thanks again! 
Glitch, would you care to share some of your thought processes on God being the Divine Me (or you)?
I am interested on hearing where you went with it and why it failed your test.
Jeffery
For you Jeffery, absolutely. No promises that it will make much sense.
The initial thought was that God could conceivably be highly personalized in his interaction with every person. Now, I know there is some Christian thought on this already, but I mean to a much larger degree.
Therefore, it was conceivable (you keep using that word…) that God’s interaction with me was in the manner of the “Divine Me” (henceforth TDM).
So, the next step was to resolve common items concerning God. Heaven, Hell, the nature of “salvation”, etc. All of these fall into place rather nicely.
There are a few problems though.
P1) If TDM doesn’t want me to know about him, how come I know know about him?
A1) I was mistaken concerning the nature of TDM. TDM doesn’t say “I don’t want you to know I exist” rather he says “I have given you a mind capable of resolving my existence, when you figure it out the question is what are you going to do with the answer?”. Or in other words “Yes, very good, you figured out I am here. What are you going to do now?”.
P2) If God is TDM what does that mean for traditional theists? Are those who do not reject the love and guidance of TDM seen in poor light?
A2) The answer is yes. TDM would not have any respect for that. So this is a big problem. The resolution to this then is some kind of multi-faceted God. If God can have multiple personalities then maybe God can also have multiple natures that work independently or in perfect union (see A3 below).
P3) Then the big problem. Jesus. As a believer in TDM, I reject the notion of a sacrificial savior. TDM would never use such an instrument.
A3) This also points to a multi-faceted God (multiple natures). However, it tends to suggest independent action on the part of different natures. Individually, I can see one facet giving love and guidance, while another gives a Spirit of Osu! type push, but this is too big of a club from the “I am here, and I want you to follow me” nature. It is unbalanced and therefore weakens any argument for a multi-faceted but in perfect union God.
Therefore, I am left with the following:
- No god.
- Pure TDM.
- Multi-faceted God. (in union)
- Multi-faceted God. (independent)
- Traditional Christian God.
#5 is rejected because of prior events (see the rest of this thread).
#3 is rejected because the evidence suggests otherwise.
#2 is rejected as being either irrelevent or contrary to the evidence.
#4 has a feeling of Divine Weasel to it, in the sense that God is resolving His own nature by seeing which is stronger. Does that make sense? I find it hard to accept a God that is having an internal struggle with itself.
#1 is left.