Could You Believe?

The “trancelike state of wonder” is probably a pretty good description; when I paint, for most of the time I cease to be self-aware; I simply am what I do. Thoughts flit through my head like autumn leaves, but never settle enough for me to notice I am thinking. I think her description of how to paint will give the artist the “spiritual” benefits of painting and likely get pieces that are meaningful to the artist, but that isn’t all good art is. There is often a significant amount of skill and planning required; I don’t know of any “great” artists who worked without studies and roughs, and usually with a great deal of formal training. A good, solid understanding of composition and color is as necessary to an artist as a good vocabulary and knowledge of sentence structure is to an author. You could get a decent book from an author who just sat down in front of a blank page, but it isn’t as likely. If I start to paint without a really solid idea in my head of what I will do, the piece will likely not be as good as it might have been with a little planning. I’d have to deal with all the color and composition issues right than and there, which require nearly a complete reworking of the whole piece if they are gotten wrong. This is very frustrating and can break my concentration, not to mention I cannot afford to habitually waste that much paint. The point of getting a lot of the big issues out of the way beforehand is to keep myself from being needlessly distracted once I get into the “painting” mindset; I will adapt and modify on the fly but it helps to have some sort of structure.

I think she is right when she speaks of those who have not been artists most of their lives; many people say to me “I wish I could do that” to which I reply “why don’t you?” I think everyone can create good art, but they are afraid to try. So her encouragement could get them started with the “heart” part of art, and the “head” stuff can come later when they are confident enough to critique their own work. While inspiration and freedom while painting is a very fine thing and much sought after by artists, they also make sure they have a solid background in the “rules” of art. Once you can use (or knowingly break) these “rules” instinctively, you can paint consistently freely and well.

David asks:

Two answers:
[list=1][]With a R’lyehan accent.[]Take a typical ten-year-old. Offer him creamed spinach and liver. Listen carefully to the phonemes in his response.[/list=1]

Obviously, I won’t speak for others, but I personally don’t. To the greatest degree I could I considered them a plea to God to fill me with His Spirit. For whatever reason, I either missed it, He doesn’t want to yet or God doesn’t exist.

I tried to surpress my own doubts as much as possible, but realizing that, as I say so often, you cannot escape yourself.

Examining my core beliefs now that I am free from any self-imposed restrictions of the challenge, I still find myself an atheist. I still find that if God were to exist, I would be very hurt and disappointed. Perhaps, this explains my problem. If God exists on a personal level with all of us, then it seems quite reasonable that God will never reveal Himself to me. Perhaps, this challenge was a means for me or God to make the attempt to seek, which perhaps is all He really wants from me. Maybe He just wants me to be open-minded, and to put my faith to the test. If that is the case, then I have no worries. I realize that this is not consistent with typical Christian philosophy which requires the acceptance of Jesus as a personal savior, but I still accept it is a possibility since.

Gaudere:

I love that. Thanks, Gaudere.

Glitch:

I greatly admire what you did. It took real guts and a spiritual honesty seldom found. My only advice to you, in case you are still open to Him, is not to look for Him in your head. He will be in your heart. And He will be you.

I have a question of the Evangelicals among us. Because it requires some intensive insight, and can be seen as “baiting,” let me stress that it is not intended to be trolling, but to get your honest reaction:

I think we can all assume that Glitch is an honest, forthright individual who sincerely conducted the “experiment” in the spirit it was proposed. Consider the results (or lack thereof) that he reports. Then consider the provision that Adam has quoted a number of times from Romans about believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth. What interpretation do you place on this juxtaposition and the apparent contradiction it poses for the Christian?

Re your suggestion to Glitch, Lib: “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling…”??

Far out.

(Did I just date myself?)

Poly, as always you ask questions that make us think. First, I believe that the discussions on this board with its atheists and other denominations has caused me to examine my beliefs more closely and has strenghtened them.

As to the experiment. That is a tough question and I want to make sure I answer it without coping out or weasling out.

First, I do agree that Glitch is an honest man and that he did his best to follow the spirit (no pun intended) of the experiment. But as he himself said, you cannot not be yourself (sorry if I didn’t capture your meaning Glitch) That is he doesn’t just think there may not be a God, but he believes that there is no God. How can he through prayer or intellectual means change this temporarily. Something must prompt him to change his mind from a belief that there is no God, to a belief that there might be a God, to a belief that there is a God, to belief in that God.

While I believe that he honestly prayed these prayers and tried to take his atheist beliefs out of it, there is still within him a belief that God does not exist. He was looking for a warm feeling or some external feeling that comes from a survey of some Christian friends. I am not putting these friends down nor Glitch’s method for knowing that something had happened, but I for one cannot explain how I felt from my conversion. It is not necessarily a physical manifestation.

So, I guess for one I am saying that I do not know that he believed with his heart. I do not think he was searching for God, but agreeing to a challenge to let God show himself. While he may have confessed with his mouth, the main thing, IMHO, is that he believe with his heart.

When I accepted Christ, I had always believed that there was a God and I believed that he was the Christian God. That did not make me a Christian. What it took was my realization that I was missing something. That something was Jesus Christ living in me. Once, I came to the realization of what I was missing and that I was a sinner and prayed that Jesus live within me, I accepted him as lord and I was changed from a non-christian to a christian.

This is not an intellectual pursuit. This is outside of the realm of science and provability.

I do not know if Glitch has children or is even married, but I know some of the other atheists are and do. When I saw my daughter born, I thanked God for her birth and marvelled in the gift he had given me. I saw her birth as nothing short of a miracle. I am not sure how an atheist sees it, but I guess it is more of happiness that the child is born and thankfulness toward the doctors and attending staff.

If I had an academic way of proving God to those on this board or IRL, I would. All I can do is pray and tell others about my experiences with God. If someone begins to believe that there is a God and then begins to seek Him, then such prayers prayed honestly can lead them down the road to understanding and accepting God, but without that belief, I do not think any prayers will do the trick.

It would likely have taken a physical manifestation outside of Glitch for God to prove Himself to Glitch. But what I see as physical manifestations of God, Glitch might just see as a natural, though infrequent, occurance.

Maybe if Glitch said, “God, my prayer is that you will levitate me. If you do so I will believe, if you do not then you are not real.” Would God do this? Not likely. Why? If he wants belief, then shouldn’t he give a sign that is virtually undesputable? He does not traditionally work like that.

I believe all a non-christian can do is say, “God, I recognize that I am a sinner. I do not deserve your love or your grace. But I want to live for you and I want you to live in me. I wish to turn from my sins and live for you. I know I will screw up, but I ask that you give me the strength to follow you and teach me so that I may screw up less often.” Unless this prayer (and it does not have to be these words, but in this spirit) is said with a full belief that there is a God and that all you desire is to serve this God with all your heart, the words are meaningless.

I know this is a long post, but I hope it has made some sense. And I hope that it is not a cop-out.

Jeffery

Yes, that pretty much covers it.

What do you suppose that might be? I mean if making a plea to God to the best of my ability is insufficient, then what would be? If I take the above to its conclusion it means that no action on my part will move me, my mind is already made up. What does that leave? Divine intervention seems like the only logical alternative.

I was trying to keep alert to anything that might seem like a “message” from God. I should have put this in my general notes, but actually the prime thing I was paying special attention to were my feelings. I was hoping to feel love, joy, or something. The physical manifestation would have been the icing on the cake so to speak.

Yes and yes.

I was very tired, but I had no idea what tiredness was then! :wink:

I was also very happy.

But these weren’t just any old prayers. The specifics were to ask God for prayers that would inspire me to faith.

True but these prayers were not of that nature.

Nope, and I hope I don’t sound defensive, because I really am not.

Presumably, if God wants me to believe in Him He will send that thing that will make me believe in Him. So, either I missed it, He didn’t send it, or He doesn’t exist.

I have a question for Lib. Did you think that I would be converted, or partially converted? Did you get that impression during your prayers with God?

If God didn’t want this “experiment” (and I really don’t like describing it that way, because that isn’t the way I see it) to happen why said Lib those prayers?

P.s. - In my view, this is the way I see this “experiment”. I recognize that I have a certain degree of faith in God’s nonexistence. I am willing to put my faith to the test and take any reasonable challenge put forth by a Christian. The reason why is multi-fold, but a major part of it is because I used to hear “Well, you aren’t willing to try” or “You aren’t being open-minded” from other Christians. Well, okay, I am open-minded. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and try to the best of my ability. Heck, I even used to take unreasonable challenges (i.e. those challenges which take a lot of time, money and energy). All I ask in return is for the Christian to put their faith to the test. I.e. you have to pray to God yourself to fill me with His spirit. I ask this, not to cause people to lose faith, but so that they can question their faith and grow stronger … or weaker. That’s up to them, but fair is fair. The replies I used to get from challenges were “You didn’t honestly try.”, which is why I now require that it is accepted that I will honestly try to the best of my ability.

Is that a challenge to God to appear? Maybe so in a sense, but I do take it sincerely and respectfully. I.e. it is not a dare. It is not “Come on God, I dare you to show up!” or “I challenge you to make yourself shown”, but rather “I am coming to you, in a show of good faith, that if you exist you will take me as one of your faithful. If you care for me, as they say you do, then I do not understand why you will not fill me with your spirit”. The point is that it is my attempt to have a conversion experience. I am willing to try other different experiences/challenges … well, except trying to run my car into a tree. I am open to any reasonable suggestion.


“Glitch … download” - Glitch’s final action. sniff

Lib said:

Well, if you’re dating yourself, you should definitely read this thread:
http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001152.html

StrTrkr said:

Well, you can read about what I thought in the following articles:
http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v04/n03/miracle.html
http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v07/n04/real-miracles.html

(You’ll have to excuse the clumsy wording the last line of the first article – the then-editor thought he was doing me a favor by clarifying something but ended up muddling up the wording a bit.)


Ignorance is Bliss.
Reality is Better.

Hey, even if he is dating himself, let’s not imply he would have sex before marriage. ::d&r::

Nice articles, David. As for the thread reference (if it’s still there), I can’t comment…it might vanish again! :wink:

StrTrk777;

In the calmest way I possibly can, I have to tell you that I take offense to the suggestion that Glitch wasn’t being sincere enough. I realize I should not take offense at what you are saying to someone other than myself, but this same thing has been said to me in respect to my attempts at talking with god.
I was raised Christian and did not come to atheism easily. Contrary to what countless Christians have accused me of, I am not angry with god, was not angry with god, and spent many, many years giving my gosh darned all to Christianity. I didn’t get out of it the things many Christians claim to get. Eventually, I discoved that any feelings of calmness of spirit and inner peace that I had previously attributed to god could also be achieved through meditation. In my struggles with the issue of god’s existance, I prayed often, ardently, tearfully and very sincerely. I deeply resent those who have the gall to tell me that I apparently don’t understand sincerity because if I had been “doing it right” their god would have answered me.
I don’t think you intended any offense with your post, but try to imagine how you would feel if someone told you your prayers weren’t sincere enough. When someone tells you they are being sincere, who are you to judge otherwise?
I hope I wasn’t too harsh, but after 25 years of heavy involvement in church and another 5 years of struggling with my beliefs, I do not appreciate being told that I’m not capable of praying sincerely. I’m sure others feel the same. If you really want to help someone find your god, it is not going to help to tell them all they need to do is sincerely pray on the matter, and then when it doesn’t work for them, tell them they must have done it wrong.


“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

Not to pick on you, StrTrk777, but I do have a question about your post. It seems to me that you are saying one must believe in order to believe. How is that possible?


“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal

Glitch:

Converted. Hmmm…

In my prayers with God, the impression I got was that he was trying to get you to stop analyzing the door bell and just open the door.

I’m not sure how to say what I really want to say without offending you mightily, and I would sooner spend an evening in a hotel room with Jesse Helms as to offend you even a little bit (from respect, of course, not fear).

So, let me just kind of say it a different way. I guess you could make an analogy of salvation to getting the punch line of a joke. Something is always lost if the punch line must be parsed, analyzed, and then explained. I think you asked some people (your Christian friends) to explain the punch line to you, and that sort of ruined the joke.

I can see where StrTrkr’s comments could be offensive, but I don’t think he meant any offense. When he said, “While he may have confessed with his mouth, the main thing, IMHO, is that he believe with his heart,” he was absolutely right. But I believe that we, as men, can believe only with our minds. Belief from our hearts is what I consider to be faith. And as you know, I believe that only God can bestow faith. And He will, if we ask for it in His name.

I can only repeat what I’ve told you before, namely, that when you find God, you will find Him in your heart, not in your mind.

What not fear?!? Drat…

Perhaps I put too much emphasis on that. I was interested in it after reading many of the replies in Polycarp’s “Modest Proposal”. I was actually surprised of the level of consensus with regards to the warmth. To be honest, I interpreted that (since they also described a feeling of love) as a natural reaction to the body from feeling love. So, in fact and I really wish I hadn’t of forgotten to post this in my general notes, but I was paying much more attention to my feelings.

This I do not understand. How much more asking can I do? This is like Jodih’s definition of a christian. If they are christian, the you are christian.

So, if I had of been converted I must have believed. Since I wasn’t converted I must not have believed.

Well, my problem with that is, I will never believe until I believe. I have asked (on many occasions, easily dozens) for God to instill faith in me. Nothing.

So, then my cause is hopeless. I think this effectively convinces me that the only possible god is the divine weasal. I swear that, if not on this occasion, that I have in the past asked for God to fill me with His spirit in great sincerity. I did this at a time when I was very agnostic, with perhaps even leanings towards theism. If the claim is that all I need to do is ask with total sincerity then I know I have done this and I know I was left to my own devices.

My impression, Lucky, was that Jeffery (StrTrkr) was not questioning Glitch’s sincerity, but observing that he was going into the experience as an open-minded atheist and could not stop being himself, i.e., an open-minded atheist. As you noted, this does, however, reduce to your “You must have faith in order to have faith” idea. I had thought about questioning Jeffery on what exactly he understood as allowing the transition from unfaith to faith in that circumstance. I’m glad now I didn’t.

As Lib. has noted, on a Christian perspective, it’s God’s grace, not our attempt at faith, that takes the initiative in such a situation. That, however, implies stuff that I would not care to imply regarding why God would not extend His grace to Glitch honestly asking for it. You either get an “he’s unworthy” line of thought that I absolutely reject – the first noun I’d find for Glitch’s character in a 25-words-or-less description is “rectitude” – or the old “God moves in a mysterious way” evasion which, no matter how much I may believe it, is legitimately subject to some scathing attacks from people who see it as a copout. And I respect that fact; it is indeed a copout. But I can’t even predict what Lib. is going to post next; understanding what God is going to do next is several levels of mystery up from that.

Glitch:

“The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his men to the assault like swarming ants, with the result that one-third of his men are slain, while the town still remains untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.” — Sun Tzu, Art of War 3:5

Be patient, my friend. All who seek find.

God told me to stop dividing the world between theists and atheists. Intellectual analysis of God is about as useful as intellectual analysis of a winter wonderland. Yes, you can explain how frozen water crystalizes. Yes, you can explain light defraction and how prisms work. All that, you can appreciate with your mind.

But to really really appreciate a winter wonderland, you must look at it, not with your brain, but with your soul. If you gasp at its beauty and forget the world for a moment, then you have looked at it in a very different way.

Look in your heart, Glitch. If there is love there in it, then you and He and I are one. If it will make you more comfortable or make it easier for us to communicate, then I will call myself an atheist. For me, that wouldn’t mean that I don’t believe in God, but that I don’t believe in theism. And I don’t. At least, not any more.

I noticed you said you stayed out of the atheism/theism threads for a week, so you might have missed my Friday epiphany. I know you saw my post to Gaudere in “What in Hell?”, but if you read it again now, after what I’ve just said, you might see what I mean.

For your convenience, it is here.

A question for the Christians:

Given the sincere efforts of many atheists/agnostics here, do you allow the possibility that some people just aren’t chosen? Could it be that God (in his all-knowing wisdom) has already drawn up his list and I just didn’t make the cut?

Or do your beliefs require that every well-meaning supplicant be saved?