I dunno about anybody else, but the God I accept loves everybody (as Jon pointed out elsewhere, even Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson). We are all His beloved children. And, like the Good Shepherd of the Gospels, He’s not ready to give up on any one of us.
Now, what this means in the context of Glitch’s experience and Meara’s questions is a whole nother ball of wax. But I buy into Lib’s expression of things.
And, like Lib, I need to stop drawing a line with atheists on one side and theists on the other. A bunch of self-described “Christians” treated me like dirt, just as they did slythe. The conclusions we came to about what was behind all this differ, but the experience was much the same. Gaudere, Lib, and I are largely mellow people (though each of us can be pushed to emotional foofaraws); should I therefore divide the world into high- and low-serotoninists?
We are all individuals. Let’s stop drawing lines of us and them.
I really have come to a whole new understanding of both people who call themselves atheists and people who call themselves theists. If we must talk of heaven and hell as a place, then I want to go wherever Gaudere is going. If we must talk of our spirits like their our souls, then I want my spirit to be like Glitches. If we must talk of our faith as if it were our will, then I want my faith to be like Sake’s.
If there’s love in Meara’s heart, then I identify with her. Or him. Dammit! Is there some sort of secret to pegging the sex thing, and why am I so inept at it?
I am sorry if it came across as my saying that I doubted Glitch’s sincerity. On the contrary, I believe he was conpletely sincere in his prayers.
What I was trying to convey was that no amount of sincerity is good enough. Why? It is hard to come up with an anlogy due to the fact that most things are physical and God is not. The best I can do is try to explain my reasoning. BTW, this is the Gospel according to Jeffery. It does not necessarily follow what any group believes, though I do believe it to be consistent with Baptist and general Christian beliefs.
I am not picking on Glitch, but since this is partially due to the challenge/experiment, I will use Glitch as my example.
If Glitch does not believe there is a God, then no matter how sincerely he prays to a God, he still believes there is no God.
Lucky’s last statement was I said you had to believe to believe. That is sort of true.
You have to believe to have a conversion experience.
Let’s see if this works. If I do not believe there is life on Mars, then I will not even bother looking for life on Mars, so I will never find life on Mars. I may launch probes, but that is only limited searching for the purposes of gathering data about the planet. What if the life is life that is underground due to the harsh conditions of the surface? If I do not search for the signs of life I will not find them.
So, if Glitch or anyone does not believe in God or even believe that there is a God, then is he searching for God? How can he? Glitch do you believe there may be a God or are you quite positive there is no God. Are you searching for God? For you to have a conversion, you must believe that God does exist, then you can ask him to change you.
Does that make sense? Believe me I am not trying to malign anyone’s beliefs, I am only trying to relate why I believe it did not “work”.
David B. is a skeptic. He does not believe there is life on Mars. He is not unwilling to accept proof that there is life on Mars, but he wants documented evidence.
So, out of REALL’s multi-million dollar budget, he funds a Mars probe. It runs tests designed by a committee recommended by Carl Sagan as thoroughgoing proof of whether life on Mars exists.
Those tests come back positive. Now, does David B. believe there is life on Mars at that point?
—===—
If Glitch were to have experienced something as a result of his weeklong “thing”, would he not believe in that experience? And if so, then in whatever caused that experience? And what does it matter what term we place on whatever caused that experience?
I don’t like “do-it-yourself salvation” regardless of whether it’s reciting the Rosary for nine days straight, intellectual adherence to a series of propositions, self-willed belief, keeping the Seven Pillars, adhering to death to the Sh’ma, or meditating in the forest until you reach Nirvana. It’s his grace. But that is something of what you were saying, Jeffery, anyway. I just want to head off the problems at the pass.
Do you remember Bobby Fischer’s game against Donald Byrne in New York when Fischer was 15 (and Byrne was what, 50, 60)? I think it was Pandolfini, or maybe Evans, who was annotating the game for a gallery of fans. When Fischer “lost his queen”, whatever master it was said something like, “Oh, the poor lad. And he was playing so well until now.”
After about another 20 moves or so, Byrne’s queen was haplessly occupied at a far corner of the board while Fischer used four minor pieces in beautifully choreographed cooperation, to force-march Byrne’s king from one corner to the other and checkmate it there. As it turned out, the presumed blunder was (and remains) one of the profoundest queen sacrifices of all time, winning in every variation ever looked at for fifty years.
In tournament level chess, it is customary to resign rather than endure the humiliation of an inevitable and obvious checkmate. When the game was finished, kibitzers asked Byrne, “Why did you not resign?”
“Resign?” he said indignantly, “and ruin this young man’s game of the century?”
To this day, it is still called the Game of the Century. God sees at least as deep as Fischer. Patience, please.
StrTrkr777;
Thanks for the clarification, but I don’t think you’ve addressed my objection to your analysis. Specifically, that I am not a person who never believed. I used to be a very devoted Christian. When I started to have doubts about my faith, I prayed about it ardently for years. During that time, I did begin to doubt the existance of god, but I was not coming from the stance of an atheist.
I’m not asking you for an answer that addresses me, personally. But I do not believe that my experience is unique. My point is that while some people may not be seeking with an open heart and mind, others do, and still do not find god, as is promised in the Bible. I ask that Christians remember this, contemplate it, and think twice before accusing someone of not having been open to the spirit of god. It is entirely possible that you are not right in saying that all who seek shall find. I don’t know why not, but the simple answer that the person was not open enough is, IMO, a general cop-out and insulting to those of us who tried (and were not coming from a position of absolute disbelief).
I think it must be very comforting to believe that anyone who seeks god will be shown the way, because that means that anyone who claims to have sought him but does not find him, must not have sought him properly. This relieves one of any guilt about not having helped someone find god ("Well, I guess they just weren’t that committed), and it saves the faithful from having to deal with the issue that god does not come to all who seek him.
It is exactly these sorts of things that led me to leave the church (note, I said the church. Other things led me to atheism).
“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal
For da record, before I reply to anything else, I did not take Jeffery’s note as offensive in any light. Afterall, I started this whole ball of wax in the first place, it is only fair to analysis it throughly. If this subjects me to the light of truth, I welcome its glow.
My patience is exhausted. I have made every attempt imaginable, I spent nearly a year going to church, praying, studying the bible. I went to prayer meetings. Sunday school. I have visted with dozens of ministers, priests, etc. As I said earlier, I have put my self (not a typo, i.e. not myself) on the line. I have taken the spiritual beatings for it. For nothing. If I am to believe the Christians like you and Poly, then my cause is hopeless. Because of certain events in my past I am unlikely to release my hold on atheism, except to release it as best I can in an attempt to contact God. What more can I do?
I can recount a half-dozen personal experiences that could be taken as confirmation of the divine weasal. However, such a god doesn’t match what I think a god would be like, so I reject it.
I had a dream once where my long since dead sister came to me. She told me that she had a message from God. It was that I stepped away from Him, and He would make me suffer for it. I woke up in a terrible sweat and terribly alone.
Of course, it is just a dream, but I could just as easily say it was a message from the Divine Weasal.
With respect to you and your superior knowledge of theism, there is love in my heart, but I do not accept Jesus as my savior. I can only conclude that He and I are not one.
I tried, but I am only human. The “What in Hell?” just got to me so I had to read it. I even replied briefly “What a wonderful post, Lib.” It was wonderful. It still is.
You want to be like my evil twin brother Glitches? For shame, Lib, I thought you were better than that.
Don’t look at me, I blew it with orangecakes.
That is a good question. Unfortunately, this answer will be so … bleah … it may not be a worthy response.
Yes, I am convinced that there is no god. However, I recognize the chance that I may be wrong. However, I think the chance that I am wrong is so slim I may as well ignore it. However, if I wish I can open up my mind and explore that possibility.
I am searching for God. Just like even if I don’t think there is no life on Mars, excepting an extreme cost, it is worth looking for. I think conducting a search keeps me honest. It keeps my hand open. I think it is wrong to grip anything too tightly. I seek and value THE truth. I will pursue it forever, because only with the truth lies certitude. Only with the truth lies perfection. I seek a great many things. God is one of them. Perhaps this makes me a fool. To chase that which isn’t there. But I would rather be a living fool then a dead genius (those who understand my principle of spirit know what I mean by living and dead).
For the record, yes, I would. I know there is a common claim that atheists will reject any experience as being something poorly understood. This may be true for many. It is not true for me.
I, as you can tell from many other posts, do not believe in chi. I think it is a bunch of hogwash. However, I go to chi seminars. I talk to intellectually honest chi masters. None of them can demonstrate or define chi to me. So, I reject it. If a chi master can demonstrate a real chi effect, I’ll accept it. But it has to pass a real test, and excuses like the unbelievers caused a negative chi flow which cancelled out my powers just won’t cut it. Similarly, I won’t accept rainbows as proof of God’s existence just because they are pretty. I want to experience what theists claim to have experienced. Nothing less will suffice.
“Glitch … download” - Glitch’s final action. sniff
With my apologies to Polycarp, I will ignore the whole of this thread, because it has exploded since I last posted. My concerns are for Glitch.
Glitch: I have a question for you, and I’d like you to answer me as honestly as possible. Search your heart, if you must.
The question: Do you want to love God?
One more: Do you want a personal relationship with God?
From your posts, I know believe that you could love Him. You are searching Glitch, and that is the key. But, I wonder if you want to go all the way. Is knowing that God exists enough for you, or do you want to abide in Him.
Let me know. If you wish, we can continue this via e-mail. In fact, I’d prefer it.
StrTrkr – just wondering if you read the links I provided. I know they’re a little tangential to what we’ve been discussing since, but you asked about that very topic.
I’m not Glitch, but I think it’s worth answering this.
**
Back when I was a Christian, I already loved God.
**
Back when I was a Christian, yes- that was all I wanted.
**
And here we get to a big part of the reason why I left Christianity. I wanted to abide in God. All I wanted was a little feedback as to whether I was on the right track, and my prayers felt like talking to a brick wall, and any number of Christians will tell you the exact same thing, in the exact same terms: prayer was, for them, “like talking to a brick wall.” But I was humble, and decided that perhaps I just had to be patient, or perhaps it was arrogant of me to expect the Lord and Master of the Universe to give to a puny human like myself even so much as a reason to believe in Him, so I turned to the Bible for guidance- even if God wasn’t speaking to me in person, at least He had given me His Word in the Scriptures. But I wanted to make sure that I was completely subservient to God’s will. Too many Christians read Scripture only to find the excuses they need for their own selfish desires and prejudices, and so I resolved that I would cast all my preconceptions away and read the Bible for what it really was, even if that meant radically changing my opinions about what God wanted of me.
A funny thing happened at that point. I had been told all along that the Old Testament contained prophecies of Jesus, but I read it again and again and clearly there were no propecies there at all- there was just a bunch of stuff about how some big warrior would come along and destroy Egypt and Babylon. I also found that the Christianity preached by Jesus was very different from the Pauline Christianity that people believe in today. Later I found that my reading of the plain word of the Bible is precisely the consensus of modern Biblical scholars, although I had heard nothing about such scholarship at the time.
Now, tell me- how do you explain this? Some Christians tell me I was insincere in my prayers. They, you see, were sincere- one woman I spoke to had been on drugs, had a few children out of wedlock, and generally reduced her life to a shambles and hurt everyone around her, but then she prayed to God, and she was very, very sincere about her wish for God to bail her out of problems of her own making, and poof God appeared to her, fixed everything, and that’s why she knows that it is entirely legitimate for God to execute the people of Sodom for nothing more than consensual homosexual activity.
I am also told that I was impatient. Impatient? Glitch mentioned years of spiritual beating. He was impatient? It’s as if you told me that your dog was friendly, but when I tried to pet him, he bit me. “Oh, he just needs to get used to you.” So I try to pet him again, and he bites me. “Just be patient.” Five years of attempted petting later, he still bites me. “Please understand that he’s a smart dog- maybe smart enough to understand that biting you is good for you, even though you don’t yet understand how.” Ten years later, he bites me. What kind of fool do you take me for?
Being told that we just have to be patient sounds a lot like being told that our check is in the mail, that we should be patient even if we’re feeling a financial pinch because of the absence of the check, and that if we decide that the check isn’t really in the mail, we forfeit our legal right to the check. How many years of our lives do we have to waste before you respect our opinions? What on earth gives anyone the right to doubt our sincerity just because we haven’t wasted enough years yet? I’ve tried Christianity, and I’ve tried my current religion, and my current religion works better. Why would I be anything but crazy to go back to something that has already proven itself to not work for me?
Just do me a favor… and don’t try my conversion experience.
Now… this is going to sound like a major cop-out but in response to Glitch’s efforts to find God or have God reveal Himself in some way… How can we be 100% sure that He didn’t? Glitch has already admitted (and it has been discussed) that he was possibly looking for some similar experience as what several Christians had experienced. Glitch could have missed something … or the answer from God really could be “not yet”. This could very well be an issue of laying more groundwork.
Glitch, I do believe that you prayed sincerely. Who am I to quetsion that? And while you were praying, I too was praying for you. I think it was you that posed the question about if a Christian prays for another and the salvation does not occur, how does it effect the Christian’s faith? (Well, someone asked anyway.) Well, how did your lack of conversion experience effect my faith? It does make me scratch my head… and I have to say that it’s just one more thing I plan on asking the Big Guy when I get there. My faith is intact, it’s my head-knowledge and understanding that get befuddled. But instead of it driving me away from God and Christianity, it drives me back to them. (Driving me away from organized religion is a whole different thing.)
So… I would be curious to know if we could ever figure out why one experience drives one person away from God and yet that same experience drives another person right to God. Any thoughts on this?
Also… did I understand right? Glitch… sometime next week you are going to be taking on another “challenge” of this type?
First to David, since he asked me directly. David, I did read the two articles that you posted links to. I must say that was not entirely what I expected from you, though I also must say, that you often suprise me.
I am glad that even though you do not believe in God, you are still honest enough to recognize the birth of your child as being a miracle. Maybe not the same definition as some would use, but at the very least a miracle of nature if you will.
I too was very appreciative to the doctors and medical staff that delivered my daughter. I was thankful for the science that developed the tests to aid in the care of my wife and daughter throughout the entire pregnancy. I was thankful for the fertility drugs that allowed my wife to get pregnant. I think you get my point.
But through it all I was also thankful to God for his blessings.
David, thank you for sharing those articles with us as well as your readers.
Poly sorry about the poor analogy. I said it was hard to come up with a good one.
Yes, I was trying to say that I do not believe that any ritual or work will cause anything, it is only the grace of God. I was just trying to phrase it in non-churchy terms.
For Lucky and Ben, you guys present an interesting thought. I believe that Phil is also had a similar experience.
I would not insult any of you by saying that you were not sincere enough in your beliefs nor in your efforts to find the truth.
I believe it was Ben that mentioned that it felt like his prayers were hitting a brick wall. Just curious. What were you guys looking for? What would have made you feel different? I know you studied the bible and decided that it did not say what a lot of church preach that it does say.
I cannot come up with a specific answer yet, but I will contemplate it and see if God gives me an answer.
This post could be a bit confusing, but hopefully in the end it will make sense.
Let us say that for the purposes of this post that the entity Satan does exist and does so as the Bible has portrayed him.
Now, I have talked about the need to believe that their is a God to really go any further. If we look at Satan and how he exists according to the Bible, we see that not only does he believe in God, he knows that God is very real. He has spent time with God. Yet, he has chosen to spend his eternity without God. So a belief in God is still not enough, Satan believes in God. The difference is that Satan lives to serve himself not God.
Ask yourself who is your Master. Who controls your actions? Who do you answer to? Who is your ultimate Master? Do you do what your boss says even if it goes against your family? What about your spouse? Do their desires come above your own? Your children? Are you your ultimate Master?
Sorry, I always wanted to use that line. You know typical bad guy line when the good guy shows concern for him. Anyway…
At one time, yes, but these days, I would say I am somewhere between barely maybe and no. I guess it would depend on the ultimate nature of the god. The Divine Weasal, no. The Divine Me (see “Atheist Relgion, (Part 2)”, sure. The Divine something-in-between, maybe.
I have no problem with conversing by e-mail with you Adam. Feel free to mail me. If you wish, I will not disclose anything we discuss. I apologize if mentioning earlier that you were “next up to bat” wasn’t something you wanted people to know. I didn’t realize that.
Ben wrote:
Respectfully, Ben, this is going to be an emotionally charged discussion. It is unavoidable. I have opened my life to examination. This means that I freely allow and want people to question it. If I couldn’t take the heat, I should have stayed out of the kitchen. I take no offense from anything on this thread.
Thank you. I appreciate your concern.
Save you concern for the weak … uhhh … nevermind, already used that line.
I think I may need a longer break. But yes, Adam has requested to make an attempt and I am willing to listen to what he has to tell me.
Nothing specifically that you posted. Apologies for any confusion.
Put more clearly. You and Poly, and others, believe in a non-Divine Weasal. At this time, I can only conclude that any possible god is the divine weasal. So, that means, an on offense, but you two worship the divine weasal and he doesn’t want anything to do with me, for whatever reason.
[list=1][li]Like Lib., I have no idea what I may have said to make Glitch think that “his case is hopeless.” What we have is ostensibly negative results from a seven-day trial. I am having trouble explaining to myself, on my thesis of how the world works, why this happened as it did, that’s all.[/li](Possible explanations include: no God/Poly & other theists self-deluded; reality of Divine Weasel; God saying “not yet”; God demonstrating he, not Lib., is in control; Glitch (presumably unconsciously) blocking some actual event that did occur during the week; other.)[li]I want to go on record, yet again, as rejecting the Divine Weasel. I do not believe in him; if you feel that something proves that he exists, please post that ASAP.[*]I would respectfully request that you and Adam post information on what he suggests, which I would affirm for myself and ask other posters to do likewise will be treated with respect. (Adam’s past experiences with witnessing may have made him a bit once-bitten-twice-shy about revealing what he has in mind. I’d like to think most of us have gotten beyond that.[/list=1][/li]
On a lighter note, Glitch said:
