Could you knock out an enraged chimp?

Factual Questions
241

No, his physics is wrong; read his posts. He said that a two handed punch hits twice as hard as a single hand punch, completely ignoring the fact that a single hand punch uses body weight to create force.

He then started claiming that it was shock waves that would cause a knock-out with a double punch. And apparently a single-hand punch couldn’t create “shock waves” because all the force would be dissipated by the head moving away from the punch. This seems reasonable to you?

If you think that shows an understanding of physics then I’m not sure what to say.

242

If you think boxing gloves eliminate the effectiveness of your magical kung fu double punch, why are they not used in mma with tiny 4 ounce gloves, surely,they have a financial incentive to use such a devastating technique?

243

I was out of town for a couple of days.

Trying to think of a way of testing the pot scenario. I don’t know if I posted the water bottle example but if you drop most of them from a height of 15-20 feet the energy transmitted through the liquid will punch the center of the cap out. Not the cap, but the center of the cap as if it was cut with a die. the shape of the bottle does figure into this but it demonstrates the transfer of energy. Some bottles have a barrel shaped base and will not do this.

As far as the animal head butting thing the neck absorbs a great deal of the energy and they probably have thicker skulls (won’t deflect in).

The deceleration time frame from 4 mph is certainly a factor in the brain sloshing scenario but isn’t it the same speed whether it’s a solid object hitting the head or a fist? Granted, a boxer’s glove is going to absorb a great deal of the impact before the acceleration process so there is probable something of a french curve in how the head accelerates. I would guess that a strike from a solid object moves the brain at a faster rate over a short distance to start with.

Now my brain hurts. OK, if you strike a bowl of water you can clearly see a wave in response. energy is transferred in the form of motion.

244

It’s twice the force of a single punch without the added weight of the body. That was implied and shouldn’t have to be explained.

245

Surely it’s still a glove that absorbs impact or they wouldn’t use them and as I’ve stated multiple times, it leave the person defenseless.

246

And you would compare to a punch without the weight of the body behind it because…?

247

If you think gloves reduce the impact you should try getting hit by one. Gloves are to protect the hands, not the other guy’s face.

248

I pointed out that it doubles the force of impact of a single hit as part of the process of holding the head in place. It’s not a hard concept to understand.

249

You know Magiver, I had some doubts. But I drew this quick force diagram and I think I actually see where you’re coming from.

250

they’re still heavily padded and will eliminate the transmission of energy from the knuckles.

251

So what are you trying to say, that if you’re trying to knock out a chimp, then your choices are a double hand punch or a single hand punch with absolutely no body weight behind it? You couldn’t think of any other options?

Hell, I’ll agree with you. If your only choices are a single hand punch with absolutely no body weight behind it or a double hand punch, then sure, the double hand punch is better. Maybe your body is tied to a pillar while you’re being attacked by an enraged chimp and only your arms are free. In that case go for the double hand punch. It probably wouldn’t knock out a 5 year old girl, but you go with what you’ve got.

On the other hand, if your body isn’t tied to a pillar then you can throw a single hand punch with your body weight behind it, and you would be stupid to try throwing a double hand punch, or to even think about it.

Remind me again, in this scenario, is your body tied to a pillar and only your arms are free?

252

They’re heavily padded to keep the knuckles from breaking, so you can throw punches full force without having to worry about your hands. Percentage of knockouts went up when boxing gloves were introduced.

253

There’s physics, and then there’s how it translates into mechanics. If someone were to state that the force of a punch would be more effectively delivered through a fingertip because the impact area is smaller, their physics would be fine. It wouldn’t make them right.

Magiver is correct when he states that a bilateral strike can theoretically result in a “harder” punch than e.g. a conventional cross, but whether it actually does is another matter. Personally I doubt it, but I can’t prove that with “physics” arguments on a message board. It’s true you can’t put your weight into such a blow but you can’t put your weight into breaking freely suspended boards by punching either, and people do that. It might be provable by experiment or computer modelling, but that wouldn’t demonstrate that Magivers understanding of physics is bad.

I’m quite prepared to believe that striking a braced skull absolutely does result in a “harder” punch in terms of contact force. That IS simple physics. Whether it’s a more effective punch is a different matter. I believe Magiver is misusing the term “shockwave” but he is again technically correct that an impact on a rigid plate will send a longitudinal wave through it. I believe the wave created by a fist on a skull, braced or not, is entirely negligible but again, I can’t prove it and have no data.

Thinking about ways to convince Magiver he is mistaken has made me examine a lot of my assumptions. The KO-by-skull-acceleration explanation is well-known, but is it the whole story? I haven’t read any academic papers on it. A punch to the skull has to make it flex, but by how much? a fraction of a millimetre? A matter of millimetres? How hard can you hit before skull-flexing transmits something to the brain, or are you looking at a fracture before that happens?

It’s high time someone got themselves head-punched in an MRI machine, for science!

254

Actually, it IS a pretty hard concept to understand if you’re used to hitting people. Let’s se if I can elucidate…

  1. You’re actually sort of correct in that the total kinetic energy is doubled, but only compared to a similar punch delivered with one hand. K = 0.5mv^2 for one arm 2K for 2 armed. The force… well, that’s a bit of another issue. I believe some people brought up the Mythbusters car crash episode, they’re also correct. In normal discourse energy and force are interchangeable, not so in physics. The fundamental difference between force and (kinetic) energy is that one is a vector quantity, and the other a scalar quantity… to simplify…

Assume you’re trying to push a car, and ask your friend to help you; if he pushes to the same direction as you, you’re doubling the force, and doubling the kinetic energy. If he’s being a dick and pushes against you, you’re still doubling the kinetic energy, but the combined force acting on the car is effectively zero (doesn’t move), your force vectors cancel each other out.
2)You don’t seem to understand the basic mechanics of delivering a punch. The total energy of a double punch is still less compared to a proper straight punch. The power comes from the body, not the arm…There’s an easy way to see how it works; take a baseball and go to a football field, press your chest tight to a solid object (goalpost, fence, corner of a building, tree…) and wrap your free arm around it (if possible) and throw the ball as far as you can. Then throw one freestanding without the obstacle limiting your body usage. Measure the distances, and see what you get. An actual punch is a bit more complicated, but many of the power multiplier elements are pretty much instinctually present in throwing a ball; stepping forward, pushing with the legs, pivoting the hips, twisting the arm… it all adds up to a lot of power.

  1. We all agree that damage to the brain is the primary reason for a KO, that’s not a problem, correct?

  2. You seem not to understand how that damage occurs. A human skull is quite strong (a chimp’s even more so) mostly due to the shape; same reason why bridges have arches, they transfer loads. Also pretty easy to test at home with an egg. Pushing from the top and bottom it’s pretty difficult to crack it, but it explodes squeezing from the sides. You can also try standing under an arched doorway or ceiling and feeling the pressure of the building on your head; yes, it’s not there, the massive force is directed along the arch, down the walls, and into the ground.

The brain itself is fragile, and suspended in fluid. Brain damage invariably occurs with rapid deceleration of the head forcing the brain to collide against the inside of the skull. Oftentimes the damage appears on the opposite side of the initial impact; if the blow is severe enough, on both sides of the brain… This is basically due to conservation of energy, the head has a certain momentum, and when it stops, the brain retains the momentun until the skull stops is. This also can be tested with an egg. Place an uncooked egg on its side on a flat surface and spin it, place your hand over it to stop the spinning, and quickly lift your hand; it’ll resume spinning, cooked eggs don’t, they’re a solid mass, so any change in velocity affects all of it. Same thing with getting punched in the head.

To try and bring it all together…

If hit someone on the side of the head with a one armed punch, the damage you do is based on the rapid change in velocity of the head causing the brain to collide with the inside of the skull, and the more momentum you can throw in, the more deflection of the skull occurs… resulting in more damage to the brain… a KO.

If you hit someone on the head with a two fisted punch, you’re preventing the head movement, thus eliminating the main cause of brain damage. Furthermore, the human skull is designed to direct forces along the perimeter to protect the brain, the force from one fist mostly travels from one side of the head to the other fist, effectively canceling the force. Now, that is an idealized case. In reality the bones of the skull will deform to some extent, and the punches won’t be equal forced or timed… some of the energy will be expended as heat, noise and compressing tissue at the impact points and your fists.

Still, it’s less power, and majority of that power is directed at your other fist. This is where they compare to the two cars colliding example… the only way it would be effective technique is, if you had the sheer power to crush the skull and deliver all of the force directly to the brain. In fact, ANY damage to the brain in your super-punch requires you to seriously compromise the structure of the skull. To cause a compression wave in the cranial fluid, your fist would need to contact it directly… I.e, a piece of the skull the size of your fist would need to detach and move inside the head. And hell, if you can actually punch STRAIGHT THROUGH a skull… with just your arm strength…why mess about with doubling up, just punch through the ribcage (weaker structure) and rip out the heart.

We done here?

255

I bet Bruce Lee could have beat an enraged chimp, back in his heyday.
ps. If we could just establish a way of getting a chimp to sign a contract, there’s an episode of Mythbusters in this thread. We’d also probably have to settle for Jackie Chan, with Bruce being otherwise disposed.

256

Technically speaking he’s right, if you simply throw a punch without putting your body weight into it.

That would be a little hard to do, mechanically speaking, but I’m sure it’s possible. Of course you would have difficulty knocking over a paper cup with such a maneuver, but if you double punched it, you might be able to fold the cup in on itself… :smiley:

257

What if it was an enraged paper cup?

258

All bets are off, in that case. The best one could do is to protect one’s genitals and hope for the best.

Do not do a youtube search for ‘paper cup genital mauling’.

You have been warned… :stuck_out_tongue:

259

Actually I think you’ll find that you can.

Anyway, sure, Magiver may not have understood how you create power with a punch when he made his first post, but he was corrected almost immediately by several people. After that point, when he continued with his original argument, he was simply wrong.

And in terms of being wrong about the physics, he stated that with a single hand punch didn’t cause these longitudinal waves because “that force is absorbed in the deflection of the object struck”. I can’t think of any physics argument that would make that true.

He also said that if you wear boxing gloves, the gloves “will eliminate the transmission of energy from the knuckles”. Again, not true no matter how you torture the physics.

260

Just wanted to say I enjoyed that… funny.
:slight_smile: