I am interested in totally non-scientific, anecdotal information on the effectiveness or lack thereof of punching someone with bare knuckles.
Karate people do a lot of it; other martial arts somewhat less. My knowledge of the old bareknuckle boxing matches leads me to conclude that it doesn’t work terribly well.
I am interested in your anecdotes partly because I am wondering if it is more dangerous the harder you hit. An untrained person would tend not to be able to punch with enough force to damage his/her hand.
I thought this thread could start in ‘General Questions’. I considered ‘Great Debates’, but not everyone is as overly contentious about the martial arts as I am.
It wasn’t really a fight, but I did punch a guy once, in the mouth. He wasn’t expecting it, and he had just gotten his tongue pierced a couple days before, so it really hurt him. I know the pain was due mainly to the piercing, but his bottom lip was bleeding a little.
By the way, I don’t advocate the use of violence in any situations, but damn! this guy deserved it!
After a good fight, my hand hurts like hell from hitting the boney surfaces of the cheekbone and jaw. During a heavy fight, I will often drop my defense in favor of raining blows upon my opponent. Although I have never broken my hand, I can see how it could happen in a bare-knuckle fight. A navy friend of my suggests that the bottom, padded part of your palm be used for hitting the hard, boney surfaces of a person, such as the cheek and jaw, while the knuckles should be used for the softer parts of the body, like the nose, temple and stomach. However, in the heat of a fight, you might just end up using fists 100% of the battle. He also points out that it is important to keep your wrist straight, and to aim your fist as if you were trying to punch out the back of your opponents head.
If you want an anecdote - I was next to an aggravating fellow in a rolling chair one time. I stood up, smashed this guy dead in the face. He goes rolling back in the chair about 10 feet, and I was right on top of him raining blow upon blow with both hands, until others pulled me off of him. Afterwards, by right hand was damn sore, but usable. My left, weaker hand fared better. Hope that helps.
I on the other hand, realize that violence can be warranted given the right circumstances.
The fights I have been in have almost invariably been the “stop the person from doing something” variety. In such cases, repeatedly hitting the person is not the goal.
I have had one fight where I was deliberately trying to hurt the guy and I recall using other parts of my body- knees, elbows, etc. I was 18 and the situation warranted it IMHO.
I don’t subscribe to “gentlemanly” fighting. If you do something bad enough to make me actually hit you, you don’t deserve any protection afforded by such rules.
That said, it takes a whole lot to get me that mad.
In my case that most certainly wasn’t true. I had a period of time where getting drunk and getting in fights was a fairly common occurance. I never had any formal training, but that certainly didn’t stop my from breaking my hands lot(there was I time when I would wake up with no memory, but I figured If my hand was broke I probably won, if my nose was broke I probably lost and both broke was a probably a draw). The first time is probably the most important, because I never got the set afterwards, so they would break easily. I broke my right hand for the first time when the guy slipped suddenly as I was bringing a big punch forward. He fell forward, and My hand hit the top of his head, which not only was much harder than the face I was expecting to hit, but was a a fair amount closer than I expected to hit anything, so my fist wasn’t ready for impact and I broke the hand bones going the the middle and ring finger. I broke my left hand trying to pull a huge haymaker, nearly missed completely, and ended up connecting with only the two little knuckles, breaking the hand bones behind them and my pinky.
After reading the post by Maxwell Edison, I feel a clarification of my position is in order.
Aggravating, to quote him is not justification for “smashing him in the mouth” in my not humble opinion.
I can’t find my copy right now, but the theory of “continuum of force” is how most professionals deal with threats, both verbal and physical. The main crux is: you may not escalate the use of force in any encounter unless you or another person is at risk and that is your last available option. If I got in a fight with every one who annoyed me, I’d be in prison.
And that leads me to me second point. If you fight with someone, the chances of having to explain yourself to your local police department are {b]very** good. You have to ask yourself: is the situation you are in worth getting at the very least,detained and questioned or at the worst,arrested and convicted of battery, assault, or worse?
If not, bite your tongue and walk away. if you physically can’t walk away, see the escalation of force scenario.
Disclaimers: IANAL, YMMV, andd use common sense.
Being able to objectively assess and deal with your own emotional state is of course assumed for all the preceding. If you can’t control your emotions/behaviors, well, you probably already have more experience with fighting than I do:)
When I used to get caught in fights (in the old days) I followed two basic tactics (1) Protect my nose and (2) Go for the other guy’s nose. I found blows to the nose to be the most effective for two reasons (1) It hurts the other guy a lot and can discourage continued violence and (2) It’s a fairly soft place to land your fist.
BTW, I very, very rarely find myself in violent situations these days mainly because I’m a really, really nice guy… that and the fact that I look rather intimidating.
I have some years of TaeKownDo behind me. The one thing it taught me was “the art of fighting without fighting” otherwise known as having enough confidence in your abilities to find an alternative solution.
The above non-withstanding I have been in a number of fights and I believe that the adrenaline coursing through ones system really can dumb the pain sensation. This is particularly true when you are actually on the recieving end.
The quick yellow flash caused by a punch to the head and its dissorientation cousin are rarely accompanied by actual pain (until later). This can sometimes cause issues to escalate as the punched party cannot make a realistic assesment of the damage inflicted until much later. They will then proceed to take whatever course of action they see fit but unfortunatly it is rarely that of running,feigning death or apologising.
Conversly , and I dont know if this applies just to me, when punching someone a strange thing happens. Punches rarely land where and when you plan because of the time dilation factor. When involved in a fight it appears that time just takes a back seat for a while. Your arms feel heavier and your spatial orientation is way off. Things happen more slowly and it is surptisingly similar to the effects a full bottle of Jack Daniels can have on you.
Pain is not really a factor until after the adrenaline has left the system. Your body can give up , simply fail. You may black out , the arm twisted behind your head may not want to work correctly or you may be winded. In short your bodies limitations will prevent you from continuing long before common sense or pain will.
So in short I believe it more than possible to break your hand in a fight purely by ucsing too much force. Long before I ever trained I remember breaking all the knuckles in my right hand in a fight. I didnt feel it at all until the morning after.
Just to add that whatever frustrations or pent up anger I had that got me into these situations has been exorcised by my training and now I find that the right combination of menace and being prepared to simply back off when its just not worth it will prevent any further research into this particular phenomenon.
I did get into a fight once (as an adult. I got into lots of fights as a kid, of course, but that’s not the same thing) and yes, I did hurt my hand.
A friend and I were strolling home when one of two drunks just popped me in the side of the head; my buddy went after them and next thing you know it’s two-on-two. I punched one guy smack in the face, causing his nose to bleed, and he put his head down so I grabbed him by the collar and punched him a few more times. He skittered away and yelled obscenities. By this time my friend had apparently won his half of the fight because Drunk #2 was also bleeding a lot from the nose and/or mouth, I couldn’t tell. They both ran away yelling a variety of drunken profanities. We just stood there, amazed.
Never seen 'em before in my life. It was so strange. I have no idea why they picked a fight with us. They didn’t LOOK tough, they just looked like students.
Anyway, my hand was bruised pretty badly, but not broken.
What very limited instruction I was given in hand-to-hand combat basically support Joeyblades’s comment. If someone attacks you, hit them in the nose (which will render them momentarily blind and in enormous pain), or solar plexus (rendering them breathless), depending what’s easiest to hit. Once your attacker is either shrieking in pain over his nose or doubled over trying to catch his breath, get away. Who needs to stick around? The only reason you should be fighting someone is to stop them from hurting you (or someone else) and once they can’t see or breathe, you’ve probably accomplished your goal.
I’ve been in a few. Never broke anything except skin.
You’d have to spend a while at the punching bag to develop the strength and timing to hit hard enough to break your hand unless you hit something wrong.I have had a very sore wrist before.
As far as details I don’t really remember any except the one that knocked my tooth loose.I bobbed instead of weaved.
I’m not a trained fighter so most were just swinging as hard as possible.
Broken the bone in my hand connected to the pinky several times in fights (known as a “Boxer’s Fracture”). Once a guy moved his head & I punched the ground, the others were sides of the head shots & cheeks. I have since gone the way of non-violence.
I’ve read (though continually failed to get verification from my sensei) that the best place to hit someone to actulally end the fight is the gut. The head is where the brain and most of your sensory organs are, to this end it is well protected by a lot of hard bones. The head will get you a moment’s disorientation, definitely, but the gut is more likely to get you the KO (or TKO if you’re just looking to run away).
I’ve never been in a real fight, and I really hope I don’t, because I could seriously hurt someone if bad circumstances arise. I’ve had a LOT of years of training in martial arts, and I know for a fact that I can accelerate my hands with near-surgical precision fast enough that I can’t see them move. But from a physical standpoint, the best place to hit is the head, if you want to knock out. Hit open handed (either with the side or the palm), or with feet, in such a way to make the head shake violently, so the brain moves enough to cause a loss of consciousness. Hits near the diaphragm will cause it to “stall”, thus cutting the wind out of someone. It will not KO (KO implies loss of consciousness, BTW), but certainly incapacitate. But if his abs are thightened, it won’t work. You must hit your opponent in the stomach when he’s not expecting it for this tactic to work. But there is always a better tactic: Walk away. Walk away from unnecessary fights. Words of wisdom:
Posted by Damhna:
That is certainly the best solution. But if you must fight, well, keep your calm. If you get exited, you’ll miscalculate your body movements and probably end up getting hurt (either by your opponent or by your own attacks)
I’ve only been in a few fights but I do know that I am perfectly calm in a fight. I also know that if you hit someone in the forehead you can break your hand. The very thing happened to my uncle in a fight.(he got hit in the forehead and the kid who did it had a very broken hand)
As for simply beating a opponent I would generally try to kick him in the gut then knock him down and kick him while hes on the ground till hes had enough. Because if hes still standing up he could possibly fight back even blind from being hit in the nose.
I have thrown only one punch and it was totally motivated by fear. I had gone to visit my sister kiffa when she lived in a basement apartment in DC. One night there was a knock on her door (which opened into an alley). I opened the door slightly and there was a stranger standing there, mumbling something. Idiot that I was, I said “Pardon me?” and opened the door further. He started to push his way in and I punched him (in his solar plexis, I think). He staggered and half-fell back and I slammed the door shut. We called the police.
I doubt that I hurt him, but rather caught him offguard. Maybe he didn’t expected a girl to fight back, I don’t know. What really surprised me was the quickness of my response, the power behind it (I’m not that strong) and the feeling that I could have run a four-minute mile. I don’t remember whether my hand hurt or not. Things got a bit hazy after the adrenaline wore off.
Amen to that. If I get worked up enough to go after someone, it’s all fair game to me. I’m not one to stand and trade punches, I’m gonna charge your ass and take you down. Then you can hurt someone for real. Punching/kneeing/stomping nuts, thumbs to the eye, grab two fingers on the same hand and pull apart as hard as possible, finger jabs to the throat, stomping knees and ankles, you name it.
Of course, I havent been in a fight since I was 19 and I try to avoid them if at all possible. A couple years ago (I was 25 or 26) this little drunk eminem-lookin jackass tried to pick a fight with me. He was 16 or 17, maybe 5’5" and 120#s. (I’m 6’3", 270#s). He took a swing at me, and actually clocked me in my chin/cheek – it didn’t hurt, but I was a bit surprised. Blood begins to boil, and I am now ready to fuck this little bastard up about 16 different ways, but before I could even react, my girlfriend charged him and put him on his ass! Of course that took away all my anger and all I could do was laugh. His boys picked him up and took him away.
So, I had to let my girlfriend protect me from someone less than half my size and drunk. Good thing she did, I’m not sure I could have taken him :rolleyes:
My philosophy, nonsensecal as it may be, is a simple one: I don’t back down from anyone, ever. Consequently, I’ve been in a few fights, some of them hilariously needless. On one occasion I exchanged blows in a bar with a dedicated Buffalo Bills fan who insisted Doug Flutie could lead his team back to the Super Bowl, where they would win this time, whereas that weakapotamus Jim Kelly had failed. Naturally any sane person would realize this was a waste of time and split post haste, but I was young and stupid. I committed the ultimate crime: I laughed. Blows were exchanged, and I’m lucky nobody pressed charges. Now I know better; I keep my amusement to myself, and keep my mouth shut.
It’s not so much how hard you hit a person as it is the WAY you hit them.
Keep your fists TIGHT at ALL times. Even a weak punch can result in a broken hand if your fists are too loose.
Don’t “swing”. Use your shoulder. If you sweep your arm around in a loop, your liable to hit your opponent with your last two, weaker knuckles, thus risking damage to your hand and not your opponent (not to mention that this results in a very weak punch, and leaves you sooooooo open). Try to hit him with your middle knuckle.
To get a tight fist, first fold your fingers as tight as you can at the middle set of knuckles. Then, tuck your fingernails into the padding behind your third set of knuckles and try to “fold” some of that skin as you close your hand, making a fist. “Folding” this skin helps you get better tension within your fist.
Don’t hit your opponent in the cheekbone or jaw–most of the time, it’ll hurt you more than him (unless your hand is bigger than your target). If you’ve got fairly small hands, don’t do it!
If you can, go for the nose first (dead on, not from the side!) to water his eyes. Then wail on his temple and ribs.
Now go and take that cute blonde back to your place.
