Could you torture someone?

[Mr.Excellent]

Hmm - you know, I’m surprised the Milgram experiment is still doable. A lot of people learn about it in high school, and it’s a standard discussion in required Psych 101 college classes. I suspect that if someone tried to tell most of us “I need you to shock the ‘learner’ so we can study the effect of pain on memory,” we’d laugh and say “sure, buddy.”

[DSeid]

A very pertinent article.

Surely those who commit such acts are not like us? Surely the perpetrators must be twisted or disturbed in some way? They must be monsters. We ourselves would never condone or contribute to such events.

Sadly, 50 years of social psychological research indicates that such comforting thoughts are deluded. A series of major studies have shown that even well-adjusted people, when divided into groups and placed in competition against each other, can become abusive and violent. …

… evil is not the preserve of a small minority of exceptional individuals. We all have the capacity to behave in evil ways. …

… So how do we prevent these kinds of episodes? One answer is to ensure that people are always made aware of their other moral commitments and their accountability to others. Whatever the pressures within their military group, their ties to others must never be broken. Total and secret institutions, where people are isolated from contact with all others are breeding grounds for atrocity. Similarly, there are great dangers in contracting out security functions to private contractors which lack fully developed structures of public accountability…

… Another answer is to look at the culture of our institutions and the role of leaders in framing that culture. Bad leadership can permit torture in two ways. Sometimes leaders can actively promote oppressive values. This is akin to what happened in Zimbardo’s study and may be the case in certain military intelligence units. But sometimes leaders can simply fail to promote anything and hence create a vacuum of power.

Our own findings indicated that where such a vacuum exists, people are more likely to accept any clear line of action which is vigorously proposed. Often, then, tyranny follows from powerlessness rather than power. In either case, the failure of leaders to champion clear humane and democratic values is part of the problem.

But it is not enough to consider leadership in the military. One must look more widely at the messages and the values provided in the community at large. …

… So if we want to understand why torture occurs, it is important to consider the psychology of individuals, of groups, and of society. Groups do indeed affect the behaviour of individuals and can lead them to do things they never anticipated. But how any given group affects our behaviour depends upon the norms and values of that specific group.

Evil can become banal, but so can humanism. The choice is not denied to us by human nature but rests in our own hands. Hence, we need a psychological analysis that addresses the values and beliefs that we, our institutions, and our leaders promote. These create the conditions in which would-be torturers feel either emboldened or unable to act.

We need an analysis that makes us accept rather than avoid our responsibilities. Above all, we need a psychology which does not distance us from torture but which requires us to look closely at the ways in which we and those who lead us are implicated in a society which makes barbarity possible.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Mr.Excellent

Hmm - you know, I’m surprised the Milgram experiment is still doable. A lot of people learn about it in high school, and it’s a standard discussion in required Psych 101 college classes. I suspect that if someone tried to tell most of us “I need you to shock the ‘learner’ so we can study the effect of pain on memory,” we’d laugh and say “sure, buddy.”

You underestimate the (willful) ignorance of many Americans.

[yojimbo]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

You underestimate the (willful) ignorance of many Americans.

It’s not just Americans. I linked to a youtube of it being done in the UK. These people obviously didn’t know anything about it.

[The_Hamster_King]

I doubt I could do it, even under duress. I’m very empathetic and merely the thought of doing something like that makes me feel queasy.

[Cervaise]

@Mr.Excellent

Hmm - you know, I’m surprised the Milgram experiment is still doable. A lot of people learn about it in high school, and it’s a standard discussion in required Psych 101 college classes. I suspect that if someone tried to tell most of us “I need you to shock the ‘learner’ so we can study the effect of pain on memory,” we’d laugh and say “sure, buddy.”

While flipping channels last night, I wound up watching about fifteen minutes of “Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader.”

There are a whole lot of rock-stupid people in the world.

[Gymnopithys]

Absolutely not, unless I’m threatened in turn, like “If you don’t pull his nails out, I’ll gouge your eyes out”.

[Cluricaun]

For fun? No, that’s reprehensible. To protect those I care about? I’d kneecap someone in less than a heartbeat.

[vison]

I’d like to think I couldn’t but I know I could.

[SiXSwordS]

I’d like to think I could, but I suspect I couldn’t.

(While it’s not part of the question, I’d guess that most people would say they couldn’t but they would and they would eventually ask for a few more amps to work with.)

[Paladud]

I doubt I’d ever choose to, barring external duress. If I had that much hatred toward someone but intended to leave them alive, I would much rather mutilate them for long-term suffering.

[Skammer]

I’ll have to free up my schedule. Who do you have in mind?

[Vox_Imperatoris]

Well, I probably could, but not if it was a very gruesome method of torture. I’m more squeamish than I am empathetic. That’s assuming I thought it was a good idea for the guy to be tortured and would hand him off for someone else to torture if I couldn’t.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Bryan_Ekers]

Sure. I just ask for a complimentary raincoat first.

[SteveG1]

@NineToTheSky

I suspect that one’s instinctive answer would be no, but bearing in mind the above, could you torture someone?

That is my instinctive answer, but the honest answer really is I Don’t Know - depending on the pressure being brought upon me. I want to think I’d be strong enough to stick to what I know is right. But, I’ve never been tested.

[UnwrittenNocturne]

I’m not sure. I despise authority so possibly not. I don’t respond well at all to being told what to do

[Polerius]

@NineToTheSky

Back in 1963 Stanley Milgram conducted an experiment where volunteers were asked to deliver electric shocks of increasing severity to a person whose responses to the shocks they could hear, but not see. The majority were able to continue delivering shocks, even when they could hear no response, which indicated that the subject was either unconscious or dead.

The experiment has been repeated recently, with similar results.

I suspect that one’s instinctive answer would be no, but bearing in mind the above, could you torture someone?

Torture with what goal in mind?

For an important reason, maybe. I can’t tell for sure.

But for simply being in an experiment (like Milgram’s) and being told to do so by a guy in a lab coat: no way.

And regarding all the “lessons” from these sorts of experiments that just about anybody would behave the same, I call bullshit. The people who thought they were administering lethal doses of electricity to other humans simply because the experimenter asked them to do so, are complete morons.

They are the brainless automatons that go through life unencumbered by rational thought or inquisitiveness. They are a prime argument against the system of democracy.

One thing the articles about these experiments don’t mention is: Do the experimenters then ask the volunteers, after the experiment, *why * they administered lethal doses of electricity? *Why *they continued to administer pain when the other person was in agony and screaming, given the fact that this was simply a lab experiment, and no higher purpose (like saving lives) was involved?

If I was there I would have asked “Are you fucking nuts? I’m just a guy in a lab coat. Why were you making someone scream in agony just because I asked you?”

[mswas]

Yes