You wouldn’t be charged with with attempted burgalry until you showed up at someone’s house with tools, at least. So that’s a poor analogy. As people keep pointing out, these guy’s aren’t being arrested at home in their underpants while fantasizing. They’re picked up when they show up at an arranged place and time after making the arrangements. Like if you were in a chat room and somebody asked you to kill his wife. He sends you a photo and tells you the best time. You get arrested in your car, with a gun, a photo of the guy’s wife, and a printout of the chat. And you want to tell us that there’s no crime because the guy was an unmarried undercover police officer and that was a safehouse where no woman resided. That’s not how the law of attempt works.
Cite?
That’s right. One of them is a straw man based on unsupported legal and factual assumptions.
That’s still a 1% to 10% dip, depending on how much of the 200 are in the 2.000, isn’t that measurable ?
And that’s even taking for granted that those 2.000 “predators” (I hate that word) are all hardcore jerkoffs who’ll cause horrific trauma events, which is not a given. Illegal, sure, but “first they talked on a chatroom, then they had sex” doesn’t tell us shit about the nature of the relationship. But I guess that’s another debate entirely, so let’s leave it at that.
Correction : you have assured us that there are probably as many molested kids as there are kids hit by lightning. Are we dedicating that much time, effort and manpower to protect the chil’un from lightning ? Are there weekly lightning-prevention shows on TV ?
I know I’m going to sound cold but yes, although child rape is probably the worst thing that can happen to anyone, I really do think the cops have better things to do than running those sensationalistic internet stings. Like investigating & trying to prevent *home *abuse - there’s certainly more of that. Or muggings & violence in schools, drugs on the campus, date rape, gun trafficking and Og knows how many other issues that affect a majority of teenagers.
I don’t blame you for continuing to trot out this idea about people being arrested at home after merely fantasizing about meeting kids. After all, even though you’ve been repeatedly told that the issue is showing up at the house, your version is the only way your argument has any legs. But in light of the fact that what you’re reading now is yet another reminder that the arrests are predicated of the accused taking a substantial step towards completion of the crime, like actually showing up at the house, and not mere fantasy and verbal roleplay, I really think it’s time you acknowledge it and stop singing your version.
1% to 10% isn’t “significantly” which was the goalpost you set above.
You’re now shifting from “it doesn’t really happen” to “it’s not always bad when it does happen.” That, indeed, is grist for another thread. I am perfectly happy to have the law remain in its present state. You’re welcome to argue that we should figure out how to prove trauma before punishing an adult for sex with a minor.
Cops do spend time on all the issues you mention. It’s obvious from your previous paragraph, though, that you view this particular issue of such minor importance that few, if any, law enforcement resources need be directed to it. I disagree, and I’m happy that my view seems to be more in currency at present than your own.
Had my parents or uncles etc… abused me, I’d have had absolutely no idea who to talk to. I’m not even sure I’d have known “right” parenting from “omg wtf” parenting. Maybe if a cop had done a presentation at school, I would have.
What did happen however, was that I spent pretty much all of my childhood getting beaten up by schoolmates, day in day out, for no reason other than I was physically weak, had good grades and was not popular. That’s not something that happens to 1 kid in a million, thousands of kids have to put up with that kind of shit. Did it fuck me up ? Sure did. To this day, I still flinch whenever someone makes a sudden move. Shape my distorted self image ? You bet. Made me consider suicide ? Can’t count how often, and tried a couple times. Maybe if a cop had been stationned in the school to put violent assholes away for a few days, I’d be a happier person today. Yeah, yeah, I know, not the same thing as being rogered by the local priest. I still needed protection I never got. So did dozens of kids at my school+highschool alone.
Shit, someone looking me in the eyes and telling me “no, it’s not normal, no it’s not your fault, and no you don’t deserve it” early enough would have made a world of difference
Now you’re playing on words. Whether or not 1 to 10% is significant depends wholly on your (or rather, my, since I’m the one who used it first) definition of significant, which in this context is : enough of a variation to demonstrate within reasonable doubt that these operations have an real impact. 5% is ample margin for that. Still waiting on the real numbers.
The fact remains that for each cop or team of cops spending weeks and months on end having cybersex as 13 yr olds to try and nab one guy who may or may not be a real threat, there’s one less cop or team of cops walking a beat, keeping the peace, nabbing dealers etc…
And I’m not saying nothing should be done - only that those stings are not necessary, nor are shows like TCAP and sites like PJ the way to go. Statutory rape, as opposed to prostitution or drug dealing, isn’t a “victimless” crime that neither participant will report. The laws in place and the courts that apply them will already always come out in favor of the minor should he/she (or his/her parents) press charges ; unless there’s ample evidence that they’re making shit up. Let them do so. Educate the parents and the kids on what’s OK and what’s not, and why.
Most importantly, do not try and make them believe there are psychos behind every rock who want nothing but their sweet sweet flower, preferably by force - don’t you think that’ll fuck up a kid too ? Hellooo deep seated trust issues, g’morning widespread paranoia…
Your teachers and administrators failed, which doesn’t have much to do with cops. I don’t know when you went to school, but I do think that schools are paying more attention to this stuff in the post-Columbine era, even if like all such programs it may not be very effective.
This kind of argument can be made about anything. It never goes anywhere. In any case we don’t know the amount of resources police devote to these things, compared to something else. It seems to me that child sex crimes is a fairly specialized thing and if a cop is working on those cases, he’s not being pulled off a drug case to do it, for example.
Hum no, no they don’t. They’re not in the park, or in the cafeteria, or behind the gymnasium etc… They’ll either turn a blind eye, or break it up then go away, which doesn’t help as much as you’d think. If you do go and tell the teachers, the little bastards wait for you *outside *the school, where teachers don’t have any power whatsoever, and beat you up twice as hard for your troubles. After a few months or years of failing to see adults do shit, mostly because they’ve got other fishes to fry, you just… give up. And after a longer time, it becomes normal, expected.
Besides, if a coworker punches you in the face, you can certainly file for assault. But school beatings ? No one gives a flying fuck, it’s just “kids being kids” or “they don’t know they’re being mean”. Or my favorite, “quit being such a pussy, man up and beat them down”. Thanks, dad, helpfull as ever. :rolleyes:.
Not only would a cop not have anything else to do, nor would he be afraid of losing his job, being sued or some crap like that, he’d scare the shit out of the bullies. That’s what cops do. Teachers don’t scare them. Their parents often don’t either, even should they be ready to believe their kid’s a vicious little wanker ; and that’s a long goddamn shot.
But that’s a huge hijack by now, and I’m not sure I really want to dwell on the memories any longer
Well, more often a hotel, from what I have seen, but yes, most of the arrests I have seen are after a step has been taken. Are you sure they all have been?
But still, isn’t it reasonable that a man may set up a meet with someone he is pretending is an underage girl, even though he knows otherwise?
Yes, the accused is taking a step- but a step towards a meet with a undercover police officer, not a real minor.
And, perhaps, the man was led into the sexual part of the fantasy or the actual meeting part by the cop. What % of the guys arrested have a past sex crime conviction? Are we catching sexual predators or creating sexual predators?
Just the arrest can ruin a man’s life, do either you or Gfactor disagree with that? And, is there any doubt in your legal minds that Jurys are very unsympathetic to these sorts of crimes? That some prosecutors use these sorts of crimes to help build their political careers?
Seems like you could fix that by actually HAVING a minor at the meeting spot or at least young person that could easily pass for a minor…
At that point, if they don’t bail, then it becomes MUCH more obvious as to whether they were fantasizing at someone PRETENDING to be a minor or actually intending to have real sex with a real minor.
And cops will fix this how? If the teacher isn’t reporting abuse or handling discipline in every situation, how will it help to place cops around every school, in every cafeteria, behind every gynmasium? On every street corner? You can’t saturate every city so heavily with cops that nothing ever escapes their notice.
Security cameras, maybe. At least then there’s an evidence trail for whomever follows up.
What about a situation where there initially was a kid but now isn’t? A situation like this happened to a teacher at my old high school. He IMed a former student, said sexual things to her that made her very uncomfortable, she and her parents went to the police who continued the conversations (using her IM handle, but she herself wasn’t involved). They then set up a meeting time/place where the guy expected to meet this specific girl (bringing along condoms and ropes). They then arrested him. Okay, obviously that’s different because there was a girl to begin with, and the guy was the one initiating the behavior, but in both types of cases, the guy is trying to arrange a meeting for sexual purposes with a minor.
I’m ambivalent about this. On the one hand, there is a real girl who felt some real distress, and she did *call *the cops, they didn’t set out to deceive, which is a good thing. They were local cops who did what the thought they had to do. On the other hand, couldn’t the student just /ignore the teacher and report the conversation to the school board and have him fired ?
The problem is you don’t know what happened in the conversations between the teacher and the police. Maybe they egged him on, maybe not. What is certain is the real girl wouldn’t have *agreed *to a meeting in the first place. Thus, statutory rape couldn’t have taken place without the intervention of the cops. So there’s a bit of a crime of intention there, if you follow my meaning (and if that term does exist in English )
And Fish, please drop it - I know it’s a silly idea borne of me having bad memories. That wasn’t the gist of my argument. You want to talk about a real problem that affects way more teenagers than chatroom pervs and it’s the cop’s job to help with ? Talk about drugs. Which could even involve stings !
So he can go to another school and do the same thing? Great solution. That aside, it is VERY hard to get a teacher fired, even if he’s done something awful, like harrass students. I’ve seen this firsthand.
There are lots of problems that affect kids and teenagers. Is there a reason we can’t talk about this one?
Well, at the time he wasn’t her teacher (he left his old school and went to a new school–the former student was from the old school). Don’t know why he left the old school (so Marley’s concerns are valid). And either way, I don’t know the contents of the conversation, so I don’t know what the options were. Either way, the police took it seriously enough to plan a sting operation.
If your schools hire teachers without checking credentials and past records, they’re doing it wrong
True enough I suppose. However, the board would at the minimum give him a specific and definite warning, and watch him more closely in the future, prompting him to re-think his behaviour or scaring him into refraining from it. And maybe he wouldn’t have, maybe he would have kept right on and maybe he would have fucked a student eventually. We’ll never know now, will we ?
Couldn’t there be some circular confirmation bias here, though ? Cops feeling they have to plan a sting because the news and general media led them to believe it to be the right course of action ? I’m not saying that’s the case mind you, just wondering aloud (and thinking of courts faced with the problem of jurors asking for tons of scientifical evidence because of CSI and the like)
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